community-based, non-corporate, participatory media
Anti-war march takes over streets
by Quinten
Sunday, Mar. 16, 2003 at 8:02 PM
quinten@indypgh.org (email address validated)
Closte to 1,000 took over the streets for more than 3 hours today to bring their anti-war message to Pittsburgh.
Today's march was, with the exception of the march on January 26, the largest I have ever seen in Pittsburgh. Based on rallies where we have actually counted the protestors and the overhead views I have seen, I think 800-1,000 is easily a low estimate for the total number attending.
For those who didn't make it to the end, the march started at Flagstaff Hill at about 3:00, and wound throughout Shadyside and then through Oakland once more, not coming to an end until it reached the Starbucks in Squirrel Hill just as the sun was setting, at 6:00.
At the gas station near the corner of Forbes and Craig, some members of the march overturned a display of motor oil cans. The crowd paused for several minutes and started chanting "no blood for oil."
The crowd varied in numbers, with a lot of people joining us in Oakland, but dropping off when the trek started up towards Squirrel Hill. At that point, when we reached Margaret Morrison Street, some of the organizers announced that if people wanted to, they should return to Flagstaff Hill, but some would continue marching.
About 130 die hard marchers made it all the way to the Starbucks, where the march dissipated. Until that point, marchers were in the street the entire way. The police were barely visible, which was surprising given their heavy handed tactics two weeks ago. I think I saw about 5-10 police cars in total, with no billyclubs in sight.
Good work on the part of the many bicyclists who helped to direct traffic away from the march, and for the people who brought water to share with everyone. It was a safe and very positive march. I saw many parents with their young children in the march, some who even stayed until the very end.
what about the frat boys?!?!?
by Noah Pression
Sunday, Mar. 16, 2003 at 8:13 PM
Noah_Pression@yahoo.com
you forgot about the frat boys who tried to fight with us. at that point one cop decided to get her billyclub and say she was going to use it if we didn't keep marching
yea
by Evan N
Sunday, Mar. 16, 2003 at 8:23 PM
dont forget the dumpster thievery!
Die In Next Time
by Isaac Ludwig
Sunday, Mar. 16, 2003 at 9:22 PM
ludwigih@westminster.edu 724-946-3815
I think we really should have all died in on Forbes like some of us wanted to. That would have been a much more dramatic way to end the march then just fizzling out after awhile. Other than that today was a good day, save a group of people knocking a cardboard recycling bin over and some other small unneeded incidence. Keep the momentum up, Youngstown's city council anti-war resolution is getting voted on this Wednesday, another march in Pittsburgh on the 30th, and another march in New Castle on May Day! (May 1st)... we'll keep you posted.
mostly good
by Hami
Sunday, Mar. 16, 2003 at 9:45 PM
Hey guys, I just wanted to congratulate everyone for marching today. I thought that we did a great job getting our message across except for some incidences. The worst incidence was in front of the frat house. I just don't think that we should be engaging in the same behavior the frat boys were showing. Instead of fighting with them, we need to show solidarity amongst each other and just let those guys continue in their misguided path. I was very sadened and surprised to hear one of the organizers of the march tell me to butt out their business when I was trying to get everyone to get off the frat's lawn. I don't who it was and I don't really have any hard feelings for him but I think it's imperative for us to remain united and peaceful. Thanks again everyone!
Tactics
by Sam
Sunday, Mar. 16, 2003 at 9:47 PM
Isaac, you write that "today was a good day, save a group of people knocking a cardboard recycling bin over and some other small unneeded incidence." I respect your right to that opinion.
However, POG advocates a diversity of nonviolent tactics. While it's perfectly alright to disagree with someone's tactics and to tell them about it, force shouldn't be used to try and prevent them.
I have no problem with property destruction in today's context. What actually bothered me more was the attempted flag-burning.
Now, don't get me wrong. On a completely personal level, the American flag means pretty much nothing to me. But it *does* mean something to a lot of other people, people whose support we need if we're serious about stopping this war (and more generally, social revolution). The corporate media will zero in on that one aspect of the march and broadcast it, and we'll be discredited more than we already have by right-wing pundits eager to brand us pro-Saddam terrorist sympathizers (and millions of listeners eager to accept that characterization).
Maybe (I hope) there will come a time when people aren't offended by flag-burning, when people see that ours is a blood-stained flag that deserves burning. But that time has not yet come, and may never come if we can't get people to listen to us.
Of course, I could be dead wrong. Maybe someone else has decided that flag-burning is an effective tactic, and has come to this conclusion through a different line of reasoning that I haven't thought of. It's entirely possible. I'm far from perfect.
And that's exactly why it's important to embrace a diversity of tactics. None of us is the uber-activist who has all the answers. Let people try different things out. In the long run, we'll learn to keep the ones that work and discard the ones that don't.
flag
by Evan N
Sunday, Mar. 16, 2003 at 10:00 PM
yeah, well from what i saw the flag didnt burn anyway because it was doused in motor oil, not gas (as some people thought) then they just left it in the street until a kindly protestor who i chatted with later picked up the nasty soggy with oil thing and toted it away.
the flag
by A
Sunday, Mar. 16, 2003 at 10:36 PM
MrPoopon@aol.com
yeah that was my flag that was covered in motor oil and i must be an idiot to think that stuff would burn but whatever. i wasn't trying to put down this nation by doing that or by having it upside down. i was just trying to send a message of distress and peace and i hope i did that. i'm sorry if it offended anyone and i can glady say that the flag is now (or was) resting in a garbage can next to the bank across the street form the library in squirell hill. once again i just want to stress the fact that i wasn't trying to offend anyone in any way. i'm just really mad at this country that i love because its doing these messed up things in our name. and just so you know i didn't atempt to light the flag on fire, somone sugested it so i was like ok whatever.
crowd/cops
by q
Sunday, Mar. 16, 2003 at 10:38 PM
i think at least 1000 peeps took to the streets today.(at least for the first hour, hour and a half when it was really strong) i dont know, i dont have experience estimating this kind of thing. 1500? maybe too large?
i had a super fun time today. great weather, great people, GREAT JOB. the crowd seemed extra rowdy today compared to other pgh marches. i guess cause we're getting so close to war.
i heard some cops had flurecent colored rubber bullet guns out when the march met the frat boys. did anyone else see this?
ray gun
by commentorite
Sunday, Mar. 16, 2003 at 10:55 PM
a the frat house, i thought i saw one of the police holding what looked like a crazy space lazer beam ray gun, i guess it could have been a rubber bullet gun, but i think space ray gun is more likely. but i think that was only one of them, they all got out of their cars and congregated behind the "POLICE FOR PEACE" banner. hehe, we usurped them into the protest. most of them were carrying clubs though.
music that goes to 11
by q
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 12:05 AM
just another note: maybe we could have some different sort of music at the rallies in the future; meaning not so folky. i know some people like folkier music and thats all great, but some of us were talking and we'd like to hear something faster and louder, at least the last few minutes. this is not to say that the drummers who get it going before we leave are ineffective(in fact they're ALWAYS great-mad props) its just how many times do we wanna listen to we shall overcome type ballads? how bout some punk or some hip-hop or fuckin spinal tap! just a thought.
--
by pog'er
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 12:54 AM
hami,
I was the one who was asking you not to interfere.
From my experience the tactics you were using were very ineffective and inappropriate. People need a lot of training and experience to use de-escalation techniques. As often as not telling people to leave the area, putting your arms up in front of people to not allow forward progress, telling people to back up and leave an area you are standing in, telling people to keep marching, and those types of actions are more divisive and confrontational then allowing people to express themselves how they wish. You did not seem to be attempting a dialogue with people, but rather you had decided what you thought should happen and tried to impose that on others. It is up to you how you protest but to try to tell other people what to do I don't feel is effective or necessary. The actions you took could have very easily resulted in a fight between you and other demonstrators. We do not have "peacekeepers" at these things for these types of reasons. We do not want people to impose their will on others.
Music
by Ken Kaminski
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 12:54 AM
I would like to play some noise "music" at these rallies, but folk dominates this sort of thing simply because it's so easy to set-up. The mic's already there, just waltz up with an accoustic.
--
by someone from pog
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 1:49 AM
q- agreed.
have any suggestions of good bands that might want to play on the 30th? Let pog know and it will brought up at the next meeting.
kid-friendly chants plz
by rebecca
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 9:39 AM
malekincat@eathlink.net
I was one of the people who brought kids yesterday. In fact me and my 4-year-old were with those who went to the end (actually, we car-hopped between Fifth and Forbes due to tired small legs). We had a lot of fun and are in total awe of the people who organize these things and all the energy that is bouncing around.
Just one negative point out of a 99% positive experience: I now have a 4-year-old walking around the house going "we don't want your FUCKING WAR!!" (her emphasis). We have a sense of humor/the absurd and will find a way for it not to get repeated at pre-school (try explaining to a young kid that the protesters are the good guys but they are just saying words you can't say because they're real mad...). But going up Forbes to Squirrel Hill this was being shouted as we were going past people on their steps with little kids, and they weren't heckling us. It's like the flag-burning thing someone else mentioned - we need support from these people. And it won't help and won't encourge them to come to events if they think these protests are X-rated and they need to leave their kids behind. I know it doesn't have quite the same cathartic clout, but can we just have "we don't want your stupid war"? Please...?
Songs
by Sam
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 9:41 AM
We need some songs to sing while marching next time.
rebecca
by someone from pog
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 10:18 AM
rebecca, thanks for bringing your kids. these are issues that pog has been thinking a lot about lately. we're trying, but it's hard because:
we want people to be able to express themselves how they see fit
we don't want to alienate supporters not yet attending or potential supporters because of artificial differences like language, appearence, etc.
we want people to be able to use the non-violent tactics they feel are most effective in the effort to stop the war.
we want there to be safe spaces where everyone can participate regardless of mobility, tactical opinion, and other issues that seperate us.
we want to convey to those in power that the people will resist this unjust war and we will take direct action to do so
we don't want to alienate supporters not yet attending or potential supporters because of things like language, appearence, etc.
i don't disagree
by Hami
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 10:37 AM
pog'er,
I fully respect your statement and totally agree with not interferring with what people see fit as protesting (as long as its nonviolent). But, I don't think I was trying to force my tactics on anyone else. I saw that in the heat of the moment people were becoming very agressive and I just saw bad things happening there. I meant in no way to create any sort of divisiveness amongst the protesters. We are all there because we want peace and justice, but acting like the bigots we are protesting against is not the way to go in my opinion. An alternative way of going at it might have been to just stand there silent and let the war mongers listen to themselves. It would have been frustrating for the small minded frat boys to stand there and yell without instigation.
hami
by pog'er
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 11:05 AM
hami,
I don't disagree with how you felt about it. I thought it was a horrible idea for us all to go over there but once we did I too participated in the yelling. That is something I need to self evaluate.
The issue I had with your actions is I don't think they were effective and they were done with the intention of altering the actions of others. That is sometimes necessary. I've done similar things in situations where people were approaching a confrontation with the police that it was obvious couldn't be won. In most similar situations as M16 you would had riled up people who were angry already. People don't like be ordered around and they don't like people taking on the role of the police. It would have been a lot more effective for you to engage a willing someone (me for instance) who was there in a conversation about the effectiveness of confronting the frat kids. That creates a dialouge as opposed to a "I've decided you need to leave the area" type thing.
someone from pog
by rebecca
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 11:44 AM
malekincat@earthlink.net
Point taken sf pog, it is hard, and you're absolutely right. I guess the logical follow-up to questioning language is "could everyone please taken their piercings out before marches because the people in Shadyside can't relate..." and on and on. So yeah, I'm being a blockhead. I guess what I would say then is just that this is what some of us with kids are experiencing - just putting it out there, food for thought, 'nat. Thanks for the input/clarification.
Wow
by Ken Kaminski
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 11:53 AM
naaa1123@yahoo.com
Rebecca, I just want to say that I wish more kids had moms like you.
music
by q
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 12:07 PM
i don't know if i was thinking live bands, cause as ken k pointed out this might be too hard to set up. i was thinking a dj or mixed tape if thats possible. im not sure what the limitations are with the sound system. could we have a live 'electric' band?(that would kick ass!) could we have a tape player or dj hooked up to the pa?
rebecca
by someone from pog
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 12:17 PM
rebecca,
also wanted to say that it's awesome you brought this up. too often we don't consider the full consequences of our actions. I think that chant was reasonable for people to use but we must be aware of the effects. There was actually another version of it used which was 1-2-3-4 we don't want your racist war. I also think things are proportional. I would have a big problem if every chant that was used included profanity. I was also happy that none of the speakers used profanity. Not that I would have tried to stop them or anything, but in a picnic environment with lots of children around it added to the event to have it be more kid friendly. I think diversity is the key. Pittsburgh has nice streak of these events being fairly diverse in age, gender, orientation, race, tactics, ideologically, and other ways society seperates people. I don't want to put anyone into a nearly defined box like that but I do think we need to stay aware of these things. I also don't think that things have been more diverse then anti-war events in other cities means we're doing nearly enough to outreach-connect to everyone, but it's been a start.
Someone from POG
by George K.
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 1:30 PM
dodgerambler@yahoo.com
Once again, I read your silly comments on a protest. A family is concerned because their child is using an unacceptable word learned at a protest. Your reply? TOO FUCKING BAD! HA. You do not want to alienate the people that are there to swear and cause trouble, oh no. You do not think it reasonable to show a child what a peaceful public gathering is like, that is outlined in our Constitution. Nooooo. You want to create an anarchist free-for all that can incorporate everyone, including cripples, fags, and the intellectually impaired, who just want to be there because they know there is a cause...they just do not know what it is.
Why don't you people find a satisfying job to work at, or start your own company, or go and repair potholes on the southside during one of your marches? You would be doing more good than you are now. Right now, what you are doing is meaningless to the rest of Pittsburgh.
George
by rebecca
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 1:58 PM
malekincat@earthlink.net
George,
First, no one said "too fuckin' bad"... I related a problem, and it was answered in a civilized manner. I accept the answer.
For the record, I'm much more worried about kids in Iraq being blown to bits than I am about my own daughter saying a word that is perceived as "bad." Because it really is all about perception. Innocent people having their limbs ripped off by "smart" bombs is not perception, it's real.
Let's think, what's really more obscene: using the "F" word in a demonstration against a pointless war that will kill thousands of Iraqis and American soldiers, or displaying "more tanks!" and "bomb Iraq!" signs in front of a big American flag for anyone to see? I know who I'd rather have my kids spend time with.
And I have a job BTW. But then again, what's a "job"? Guess that's all peception too.
Sorry I brought this up guys.
perception
by George K.
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 2:38 PM
dodgerambler@yahoo.com
If children are killed in the conflict in Iraq, it is because #1. S.H. did not comply with the instructions he was given. #2 S.H. put the children in harms way. and #3 Accidents happen.
Children in Palestine are blowing themselves apart pretty regularly too, through their own volition (if a child has any).
So now we can speak of perception. Your point of language is perception determines the rudeness of the word. One persons swearword is anothers adjective. The same can be said of laws. And Culture. And Philosophy. So, as so many of the liberal/social "anarchists" want us to believe, there are no moral absolutes. Everyone is free to sit in their own space and carry out their own life in a way that is morally right unto themselves. Is that correct?
That is bullshit.
There are absolutes, and perception collapses like a quantum state function into a collection of social norms. And our social norms have us repulsed at the thought of other people hurt. The question to ask ourselves is: the US will hurt people by ousting S.H., but, by taking no action, will more people be hurt BY S.H.? Whose propaganda do you believe?
The moral absolute here is to take actions to prevent the most people from being hurt. Perceptions skew the moral issues.
Georgie...
by Brad Cue
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 2:51 PM
George, you really need to get your eyes checked! Wow... You continue to amaze me in your ignorance. You call names, misquote people, and spout forth false information. If you'd like to have a logical talk about it we can arrange that... But before hand you're welcome to use my shoe horn to pull your head out of your ass.
-brad
Hey George
by Evan N
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 4:31 PM
so i suppose it's saddams fault that the united states bombed a fucking refugee shelter in the first gulf war? and thank you kindly for the suggestion of getting jobs but most of us have jobs, hell i have a job AND go to high school, and i still find time to voice my complaints in a more civilized way than bitching out people on a message board.
greetings, dr. feynman
by sharpie
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 5:20 PM
Hey, Georgie. I see you must have tried on a thinking cap recently (I guess it didn't fit!) in your appeal to Theoretical Physics to address a question of ethics. Man, I thought I heard the last pseudo-intellectual quantum physics analogy back in '96. Way to kick it like an old-school mindless hack.
I'm further amazed that someone who is so concerned about an activist group's language policy is such an unredeemable potty-mouth himself. For shame, you ineloquent wretch.
Whose propaganda do you believe, Georgie? Beliving anyone's propaganda makes you a chump. But it appears that you've swallowed the lies of Bush and his gang hook line and sinker. Maybe I'll start calling you Chumpie.
Thanks for Feedback
by wheatpaster
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 6:01 PM
Thanks for giving feedback, yall. This helps as POG plans for M30.
For the die-in issue: I think if an affinity group really wants to plan one, they should be in contact with POG via e-mail (check the website). On M16 there was no tactical discussion beforehand about where the best place to do it would be, how we would meet back up, etc. The idea seemed to come out of nowhere, which in all honesty confused the hell out of those trying to strategize the route. If other people want to coordinate a die-in, it would rock if that discussion happened beforehand so that POG can factor it into the plans.
I'm personally very happy with how the frat house thing was handled: no physical fighting (WOO HOO!), yet we addressed what they were trying to do. We were only there like three or four minutes, although at the time it seemed like fifteen... tension distorts perception, huh?
Again: Politically cool bands are most certainly welcome to contact POG about M30 ASAP!!!! Actually, feedback and ideas in general are always appreciated. Again, yall rock for coming out.
-Peace
i wanted you to
by NOAH PRESSION
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 10:11 PM
i wanted to have a die-in on forbes and bigelow. i tried to organize it. but no one cooperated
EVan N. is in High School
by George K.
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 11:12 PM
dodgerambler@yahoo.com
How could I have ever guessed that Evan was as young as he seemed? You are in high school AND have a job? WOW. You ARE taxing the boudaries of maturity Evan! To be involved in political debate so early in life is commedable. I too, had a job full time in high school. I also had a job through University, getting my engineering degree in only four years while working mostly full time to pay for it. I went on to obtain additional degreeS from there.
You are not old enough to wash your own underwear properly, let alone comprehend the paranoid backwash that the "peace" movement is feeding you.
Also, if you are depending on the internet for your information, please, please, please, understand that even I can put a pretty convincing webpage out there.
Brad Cue
by George K
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 11:17 PM
dodgerambler@yahoo.com
Was it you, Brad, that I saw in one of the message boards, bragging about his engineering degree? I will be interested to check with you in ten years to see how much social justice you do with your chosen course of study, if that was indeed you.
Also, we can have a logical talk any time, but, alas, time is short. S.H. must face the music in two days, as of tonight. NO amount of walking, talking, and dumpster pushing is going to stop it. Talk and UN laws are the last bastion of the weak and ineffectual.
A Trekkie!
by George K.
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 11:27 PM
dodgerambler@yahoo.com
Well, I thought if I threw in a quantum phys ref, sharpie, I would find a new-world socialism trekkie on the board! Actually, I could well believe that the last time you heard anything about quantum physics would have been '96...that would have beeen when you failed out of the last class that dealt with facts and not feelings, right? Now you are fully ensconced in "touchy-feely" world. None of you people on this board have the balls to create social / governmental change. You are little lapdogs of the left, yap yap yap. I personally do not subscribe to any propaganda, sharpie, nor do I really believe hardly anything I read in the media, indepandant or otherwise. It ALL comes through someones filter, who wants to skew the world in their view. That is what your writers do, and that is what big media does as well. If you defend it, you are a fanatic. And nowdays, video is as easily manipulated as the written word.
Good luck, dull boy. You are being manipulated too.
P.S. haven't heard anyone use the words "kick it old school" since 1990. Dammit!
Grr
by Troy Shelley
Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 11:31 AM
axelfear@yahoo.com
Mr George K.,
You have got to be one most misinformed people (save, the fraternities) that comments on this site.
Next time you want to belittle someone do it to the mirror.
Love All
Troy
www.geocities.com/axelfear/axel_fear
Respect diversity of tactics, dammit!
by John
Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 12:57 PM
johncihon@yahoo.com
To further expand on what some people have already been talking about: As well as some protesters cleaning up the dumpster when other protesters put it in the street, some protesters harrassed other protesters who were using chalk to write slogans on buildings in Oakland. As well, when a some protesters attempted a die-in in Oakland, I saw Thomas Merton center 'organizers' actually walk over to them and try to pick them up, and tell them not to do it.
The war movement is too widespread for any single actions to 'make you look bad' in the media's eyes.
IF YOU DO NOT LIKE WHAT SOMEELSE IS DOING, DON'T STAND NEXT TO THEM! I have included my real name and e-mail address to facilitate discussion with anyone who wishes on this issue, but I never thought that I would see the day when I was more concerned with getting hassled by my fellow 'protesters' than the police.
Confidental to George:
by John
Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 6:00 PM
Quantum physics is so last century. Temporal Physics is where our future (and past) lies.
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