community-based, non-corporate, participatory media
CMU Frat Wants a War
by ashish mahajan
Sunday, Mar. 16, 2003 at 11:49 PM
asm45@pitt.edu
This is a flyer (jpg file) and a question about the march today, 3/16/03.
flyer3.jpg, image/jpeg, 1080x835
Was anyone else disturbed by the Carnegie Mellon fratenity, delta upsilon, that almost caused a brawl during the march today? If Pennsylvania sold beer on Sundays maybe they wouldn't have been so obnoxious. Or maybe the gym was closed....
Do you think it's worth posting these flyers?
Update...
by Daniel Papasian
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 12:26 AM
Has anyone verified that all of their pro-war materials have been removed from plain sight from Forbes? I could see some of it out there fairly late. Also, a flame war is developing on a popular CMU bulletin board (cmu.misc.market) now because I said they were immature.
They said they were just supporting the president. When, pray tell, did the president advocate nuking Paris?
Response to gov lackeys
by p
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 1:02 AM
The situation involving the "pro-war" frat guys brings up an interesting challenge to resistence activists. As over-testosteroned and media-driven as most fraternity members appear to be, they actually are often the ones enlisting, albiet through an ROTC program, which usually guarantees them officer jobs. These are the "sons" of white america, the vestiges of a cliched, hollow dream. Nevertheless, they are the para-s, and they want to go fight.
The problem is, the most effective way to shut down a military is to breed discension in the ranks-- to cause a "strike" in the armed forces.
We know that they are suffering from media saturation and corporate culture; thus, to be most effective, it would seem that we are the ones charged with winning them to our side. I am unsure if treating them as enemies is productive.
Nevertheless, I am also unsure about whether the efforts to educate the status-herd would not be too toilsome for its worth.
Any comments?
We should reach out...
by Daniel Papasian
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 1:21 AM
I agree. I say we call some sort of frat-activist meeting, where we can all discuss what we feel and why. Call it a teach-in, call it propoganda, call it whatever you want, these are people who we should reach out to. If we can't reach out to these people, we won't be able to reach out to the world.
reach out with sanctions
by deadrockstar
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 10:00 AM
It might be worthwhile to check up on the Delta U charter, or CMU's fraternity rules of conduct. Maybe there are regulations against "hate speech" or something similar, so we could nail the frat through the system. After all, we've captured the offenders on film. Maybe some CMU students should file the first complaint?
fragging fodder
by John Lacny
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 10:51 AM
> As over-testosteroned and media-driven
> as most fraternity members appear to be,
> they actually are often the ones enlisting,
> albiet through an ROTC program, which
> usually guarantees them officer jobs.
A good point. In other words, if people like this ARE in the military, they're the kind of people that rebellious soldiers used to shoot in Vietnam (and elsewhere), and justifiably so.
In other words, these are mostly children of privilege. For the most part, they're civilian chickenhawks. But if they're in or close to the military, they're officers or prospective officers. Either way, they're the kind of people who like to have others do the killing and dying for them.
John Lacny
I agree with p
by Ken Kaminski
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 10:55 AM
naaa1123@yahoo.com
My suggestion is to engage them in a civilized, impromptu debate right there were ever we happen to meet them. All they know of the anti-war movement is what they see in 15 second sound bites of unqualified talking heads on Fox News. I really think we could have reached out to them right then and there.
draft 'em flier is good
by vikram
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 11:18 AM
I know that this is INDY media but I wanted to make a point with the end of the post-gazette article:
"Police monitored the march at a discreet distance, several blocks or a parallel street away. A couple of squad cars and an ambulance trailed the marchers; directly in front of the first car, five protesters carried a banner that read: "Police for peace."
"Aside from a handful of testy motorists, the only confrontation with passersby came at Carnegie Mellon University's Delta Upsilon fraternity on Forbes Avenue, where brothers displayed signs that read: "Nuke Paris," "More Bombs, Cheap Gas" and "Remember 9/11?"
"The marchers encountered far more motorists and passersby who extended the peace sign or honked in support.
"Such support bolstered the protesters' spirits.
""I'd like to think that at some point people will start questioning the credibility of statements coming out of the administration," Bradley said. "How many times do they have to say something and then have it disproved before people are questioning it at the beginning?""
This article was pretty good for us. It showed that motorists supported us, and marginalized the frat boys. I think fliering on campus about drafting war supporters is good. Maybe the poster shouldn't name all frat boys, since I heard that another frat house at CMU had a banner that said "Bomb DU."
I think we activists should reach out to low-income communities, working people, and those who are already uneasy about this war so that we can plan future actions together and participate with them. When Bush says "You are either with me or against me" he wanted to squash dissent. But we are against him and what he stands for, and so are most people. Let's get those people activated and polarize against what Bush stands for.
This machismo frat boy thing is what Bush's public appeals are all about - don't think (about history or consequences), just consume (products, Bush's idea of America). The picture of the DU house on this site is great. People are dying for these guys?
So, I am all in favor of further marginalizing the reactionaries, making fun of them, putting up posters that say they should be drafted, because they are not interested in dialogue, supporting soldiers (who shouldn't be sent to stupid wars), or defending ALL Americans (just themselves) despite what they say. They just want to make fun of something for their own entertainment. Let's do the same while making a statement about the injustice of war and military recruitment.
Simmering Disgust
by George K.
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 2:00 PM
dodgerambler@yahoo.com
I think you people have it wrong. The "incident" with the frat boys is a manifestation of something much larger, and it is something that you must be careful of provoking. Many people are growing tired of your arrogant and self-righteous proclimations of government wrongdoing and disrespect of the president. These "boys" were drunk and were out of line, but many people who are not as "peaceful" as you are now getting fed up with your "threats" to "shut down business" if we go to war. Let me say this. There are groups of us that will not "permit" your march to shut down business as usual in downtown Pittsburgh, or elsewhere for that matter. Do not question us about our tactics either. Do not engage us in conversation. We simply do not care about what you have to say. You are a cancer growing in our country, causing it to rot from within, weakening our resolve and morals.
As I have said in another post, on another topic...the UN is a US-created entity, and it can be deconstructed by the US as well. The UN is not serving its purpose, even if it boils down to its purpose being US-purpose. So, the conclusion is that your loud, agressive, annoying, tactics are not serving any purpose but to inflame the general publics opinion AGAINST your cause. Your tactics are backfiring, and you are not changing minds. I would say good luck, but that is not going to happen.
oh george
by Evan N
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 4:35 PM
GEORGE K LADIES AND GENTS THE SHINING BEACON OF DEMOCRACY IN A WORLD GONE BAD WITH HIPPIES AND COMMUNISTS!!! you dont care about we have to say? thats funny because we are the majority of the world. Take a civics class and learn about democracy.
second of all the UN is serving its purpose - how is it not, just because it isnt whoring itself to U.S. interests? how arrogant of them to ever question what the u.s. says. I feel sorry for you that you have closed your mind off to discussion and debate. you know what that is called? ignorance. Check websters dictionary if you dont believe me
history?
by George K.
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 11:35 PM
dodgerambler@yahoo.com
You talk about history and democracy Evan, my high school idiot-savant? READ A HISTORY BOOK THAT GOES BACK MORE THAN A FEW HUNDRED YEARS OR SO AND COVERS MORE THAN THE US AND EUROPE. People are savage and democracy is not that common. It is not a long-lived form of government, even in Rome. I am not yearning for the demise of the Republic and a return to Caesars Empire (with all of its problems of succession), but, Evan, you have to be more realistic than you are professing to be. The strongest force in the recordable history of mankind is COMMERCE. If you interfere with commerce, you either gain the upper hand, or you are removed. Do you think your paltry peace march is going to gain the upper hand? no. it will be removed. I hope mommy and daddy have enough money to ship you off to a good college when you get out of high school.
God Bless The Almighty Dollar, eh, George?
by susyzimzel
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 2:15 AM
susyzimzel@yahoo.com
Isn't it time humans evolved beyond commerce into working for something a little more worthwhile? Soon nobody's mommy or daddy will have to send them to a really "good school" because the current administration is digging this nation into a hole we won't be able to work ourselves out of. It is a bit depressing that you choose to side with the almighty dollar rather than considering actual living human beings, like the ones our military is prepared to obliterate over in Iraq.
Draft not neccessary
by R
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 6:09 AM
As I have already pointed out in other threads, this "scare them with the draft" idea seems cute except for the fact that we voluntarily ensure the security of our country by proactively joining the military. Do not try to marginalize our comitment to support our troops. Our brother brother General Tommy R. Franks, Commander in Chief United States Central Command is running the show. Not to mention our other brothers who have had their schooling interrupted while being activated for duty.
They deserve our support.
http://www.deltau.org/online_publications/quarterly/winter_01/6.pdf
no faith
by George K.
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 10:41 AM
dodgerambler@yahoo.com
I don't have that much faith in humanity susy, sorry to say. Maybe my view has been corrupted by reading too MUCH history, and finding that nothing that you speak of, if it is created, ever lasts. So we must recognize the forces at work in the world and manage them the most effective way possible.
The most efficient and effective way to begin dismantling the repressive dictatorship in Iraq is invasion. If S.H. cared about his citizens, he would keep the children out of harms way, not use them as collateral damage fodder for the CNN war.
Evicting S.H. will prevent far more people from dying, then diplomacy will.
And, yes, profit is most certainly a central issue in these situations. How else can you move countries to act, even in humanitarian missions? Money. That is just a fact. Saddam revels in his money. That is why his people are starving.
oh, wise one!
by a-
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 2:37 PM
george -- it must be a burden to know as much as you do about how the world works. how do you handle it?
Vikram
by DU supporter
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 4:16 PM
You pose the question... "People should die for these guys?" The short answer is Yes. It is our military who protect the ideal and values held by every citizen in this country, and whether you agree with them or not is irrelevant. Merely saying that we should be drafted is a weak argument. How are you standing up for what you believe in. Your post was the ultimate statement in hypocracy. Maybe you should travel to Iraq and try to solve the problem yourself. Instead you choose to mock the people who make it possible for you to express your views freely. How can you believe that someone else's views are merely for entertainment, but your believes are true and grounded. You are clearly an intellectual snob who lacks the understanding that people can have differing oppionions and co-exist.
Democracy?
by SoundsLikeGreek
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 6:13 PM
DU supporter: Does this sound like the way that people of differing opinions co-exist? Does this sound like democracy?
"It is our military who protect the ideal and values held by every citizen in this country, and whether you agree with them or not is irrelevant."
I didn't know that everyone in the US had the same ideals and values -- we clearly don't.
good point
by vikram
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 8:48 PM
Yeah, I am probably a snob. Radicals and activists (eg. those in the union, anarchist, civil rights movements who fought for our rights at the workplace and in society) have given me a lot a freedoms that I take for granted. But please don't call me an intellectual. Yuck. Anyway, DU can say "bomb Paris" if they want. Activists can march in the street if they want. Bystanders can heckle activists if they want. And activists can yell back and make stupid fliers about hecklers and DU if they want. In what I hope will truly be the ultimate statement in hypocrisy on this thread, l think that we should move on and do our own thing and coexist.
"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
- George W. Bush
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