community-based, non-corporate, participatory media
Delta Ooopsilon Contact Info
by V
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 3:54 PM
Complain about the Ooopsies
http://www.deltau.org/
Tyson R. Vaughn-Director of Chapter Services
vaughn@deltau.org
317-875-8900x211
Message board
by Jan
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 4:36 PM
http://www.deltau.org/
March 16 protest
Hey, I was on the anti-war side and I figure its a waste to reason with such close-minded, dim witted, drunken, selfish, spoiled frat boys so I will not. I only have one question: If you are so gung-ho over this pointless war, why don't you enlist in the army and "kill arabs" yourselves????? Or are you just content to let others fight the war (and die in it) while you sit at home and watch football games?? If you are not going to go over to Iraq, why don't you do something constructive and read and research about what is really going on, instead of having the TV tell you what to think.
I can't wait...
by Brad Cue
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 4:53 PM
I can't wait to get home tonight and edit the video I have of the frat boys. My battery went dead a bit early, but I've still got some incriminating evidence of them... Oh yeah, I'll sending the video link to the director listed above.
-brad
It's still up there
by Daniel Papasian
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 4:53 PM
It should be noted that they've left their "pro-war" display up there, and it's highly visible from Forbes Ave... it'd make me ashamed to share a school with them, but I think most passerby don't take it seriously at all.
they don't like face masks
by nick
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 6:40 PM
A bunch of people have been debating the war/the protest with various DUers and supporters on the bboards at CMU and they keep bringing up people's bandanas and face masks, comparing them to gang colors, stuff like that. I'd like to respond but I haven't heard much about the theory behind face masks. Can someone who knows more about it than me get on misc.market and explain it to them or let me know so I can post a response?
Face Masks
by masked
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 6:49 PM
People wear face masks for a variety of reasons. Number one, in my mind, is to avoid persecution for any perceived difference (race, orientation, gender, size, appearance) and to allow for fully confident expression. I am not ashamed of my beliefs (which do happen to adhere to a policy of non-violence), but having been arrested for them before, a mask is a small price to pay to feel secure exercizing my rights.
People also choose to wear masks in solidarity with people who feel that they may be targeted for some arbitrary characteristic and in solidarity with other struggles around the world (the Palestinian struggle being a good example where family members sometimes wear masks to funerals because they are afraid of the Israeli Defense Force).
The face masks also reduce the social consequences one pays for voicing their opinion. How safe would an unmasked protestor feel walking by the DU house if they'd been threatened and yelled at by the folks there? People also lose jobs and face other problems when they choose to demonstrate.
Finally, face masks do help reduce the pain caused by chemical weapons (pepper spray and tear gas). While these haven't been used recently in Pittsburgh, they have in the past, and officers are issued chemical weapons (pepper spray) and usually have it at their disposal.
--
by --
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 6:54 PM
If they think they are like gang identifyers how is that any different then the stupid fraternity letters, shirts, etc.
I'm sure the biggest problem they have with bandannas is that they can't see the faces of the people they probably want to beat up later.
There are many reasons for covering your face (note wearing a bandanna is different then being in something like a black bloc which is a bit different) The chief reason to wear a bandanna is to avoid surveilence by the police. They were filming yesterday and they will be filming again. In the past they have compiled and used such info to illegally track, harass, arrest, and disrupt the lives of activists (a la cointelpro). Why should we let them put us in a giant database with unknown purposes. Right to privacy.
Frat Boys
by Matt Levy
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 6:56 PM
After the march dispersed up at Starbucks I walked back to Pitt and noticed a number of new signs out in front of that frat house. I stopped to look and one came over to chat. Before i knew it i was surrounded by the brothers and was engaged in political debate. One of them actually could form an argument and some others could occasionally throw in a fact or comment. It was a pretty intelligent conversation and a good experience. What it came down to is he saw no problem in using our military as an investment and capitalizing on oil which is something our society is dependent on. Personally i value human lives more.
Huh?
by Ken
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 7:33 PM
Wow, it's funny.. calling another person close-minded while blindly stereotyping them. You people seem to assume that "frat-boys" are all stupid and have no knowledge of what's going on, while we actually all watch the news probably more than most, and discuss current events amongst ourselves.
We're so spoiled, obviously we come from rich families and we get every single God damned thing we want. That's a real open mind you got right there. You have no clue who we are or how we think, you sit up on your high chair judging other people like some self-righteous creep. Get a clue, you don't know everything about everybody.
Tell me how to rectify the situation with Hussein, without the use of force.
hmm
by Evan N
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 7:47 PM
First of all i would like to say if you dislike the Drunk Party Frat-Boy stereotype go talk to the Delta Upsilon dudes with the signs, as they only further that stereotype.
Second of all, the situation in iraq can be mended by diplomacy. All diplomatic talks with iraq recently have been with U.S. threatening war looming overhead. This isn't a way to get your opponent to see your side of the issue. Also, a country which you previously bombed, napalmed, sanctioned off, and starved isn't necessarily going to want to have diplomatic choices. In any situation that it would, the threat of war AGAIN upon them would shut them up. Dropping the sanctions would be a quick and easy way of getting back on the side of the Iraqi people after we gave them napalm colonics in '91.
ugh
by ken
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 8:38 PM
How does DU having signs further the drunken frat boy stereotype? That wasn't even the point of my arguement, however. I was showing how ridiculous it was for him to claim that frat boys are close-minded while he prejudges others.
Diplomacy? We've been trying diplomacy for 10+ years now. Inspectors after inspectors have gone to Iraq, and at one point were not allowed to even do their jobs.
Iraq was santioned off for a reason. If Iraq wants peace, it would have destroyed all of its weapons and it would have shown ample proof of their destruction.
Lastly, don't spin this around as if it's the Iraqi people we need try to convince, I'm sure they want peace as much as we do, but their leaders are the ones who are controlling the actions of the nation. Why do you think we're allowing Saddam to leave the country and relinquish his power?
Frat Boy Stereotype
by Brad Cue
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 9:48 PM
Ken, we don't need to make up reasons to further the stereotype. Look at the below video clip that I took and tell me what kind of positive stereotype is brought out by the fraternity. They are the first to shout, the first to act in an aggressive manner.
http://indypgh.org/news/2003/03/2196.php
...
by ken
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 10:20 PM
Jesus what does it take for my point to be understood??
Number 1) No stereotype is positive, it is just an example of people taking it upon themselves to pass judgement on a whole group of people.
Number 2) I don't care what the stereotype is, the fact that someone would call someone else close-minded and then in turn stereotype them is where the problem lies. An open-minded person should be able to state the facts without turning it into a judgement of character. Thus, hypocrisy is evident in the previous post.
Actually, I could call the peace protesters a bunch of militant youths with nothing better to do than to disrupt the lives of citizens with no affiliations. Did you watch the clip of the dumpster being spilt over? Is that not evidence (according to you) of a negative stereotype being potrayed? Please don't tell me to "watch the clip" I'm a DU i know what happened.
Agreeing with Ken
by Quinten
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 10:47 PM
I agree with Ken. All frat boys are not confrontational or boorish. But you put people in a group in the right circumstances, and people will act pretty dumb. I think that's clear, as both the protestors and the counter protestors were pretty immature.
But it was really a non-incident for most of the marchers. I barely saw it, and it ended in less than five minutes without anybody getting hurt. Why are wasting so much time discussing it?
.
by .
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 10:51 PM
"Number 1) No stereotype is positive, it is just an example of people taking it upon themselves to pass judgement on a whole group of people."
Well, sort of, but not really -- especially in the case of a frat. Frats do a lot to perpetuate negative impressions of their organizations (Hazing, destructive behavior, bullying, gender exclusion, gender exploitation, etc.) Whenever someone belongs to an organization that identifies with specific ideals, assumptions are made about that person -- goes with the turf. I'd make negative statements about anyone in Hitler's Gestapo, and while that's an extreme case, it just goes to show you that those you associate with speak to your own ideas and mores.
If Fraternities were actually committed to the community and using the organization for positive change, then they'd be more on target. What they do find time to do is for the most part minimal -- not to say they're all like that, but I can't really see the DU fellows doing too much ... And when you consider that Frats discriminate on something as basic and arbitrary as gender, you have to acknowledge the more systemic issues with such organizations.
..
by ken
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 2:18 AM
Now you're getting ridiculous... we discriminate based on gender??? WHAT?? IT IS A BROTHERHOOD, there are sororities, why don't you tear them up for discriminating against men?
I think this past event gave people the chance to release some built up aggression they obviously had for fraternities. This is turning into an all out assault on the fraternal institution
kind of agree
by John
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 2:39 AM
I agree there is a lot of anger being expressed towards DU and the frats in general. The display and hollering from DU was a big provocation to a group of people who were already really pissed off. The reaction from some of the protesters was counter-productive and stupid.
It's not really advantageous for either DU or the activist community to get into a escalated conflict about the war. Why don't both sides just make a concious effort to ignore the other one. What's the point in posturing to the other side? The only way a real conflict is going to end is bad. Do people really want to see fights, destruction of personal property, arrests, DU kicked off campus, people expelled from school, and everything else that could happen in situations like this that are so volatile. It's a powderkeg such waiting to go off. Sit back and re-asses. Is it worth it to either of you all to start shit? Does anyone want to see someone injured because of this shit? There were a lot of kids in the crowd on Sunday. What if someone had really lost thier cool. I know a couple protesters were close and I saw a couple brother srestrain other brothers who looked close to losing it. What's it going to take for people to think shit has gone to far? Some protester beat up by a bunch of people, the next thousand person march routed past the DU house in percieved retailiation? The DU house completely destroyed by a couple hundred pissed off people in masks?
Frat brothers: make fun of stupid activists all you want. Drink beer, do community service, support the troops how you see fit, hold your own rally, kick it with the ladies, and everything else you normally do.
Anti-war protesters: make your signs, hold your vigils, disrupt traffic and government institutions, have fun in your lives, and whatever else you think needs to be done to stop the war.
Tommy Franks
by R
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 4:44 AM
While you are on the DU site gleaning more information that you think may somehow used to "tell on" us, please allow me direct your attention to the section that proudly showcases our brother, General Tommy R. Franks, Commander in Chief United States Central Command. He is responsible for leading the coalition troops in the upcoming campaign and recieves our full support.
http://www.deltau.org/online_publications/quarterly/winter_01/6.pdf
...
by ...
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 8:04 AM
I don't think that sororities discriminating based on gender is right, either, but we were talking about frats, weren't we, Ken?
Take a look at grade school: The Boy Scouts of America and the Girl Scouts of America don't so shit except perpetuate sexism, gender roles, and other negative societal images (Yeah, every once in a while a lone Eagle Scout candidate builds a bridge somewhere). The Boys and Girls Clubs of America (co-ed) do massive amounts of community service, teach people of all genders (and orientations) to work with one another and build constructive atmospheres. If a bunch of kids in Middle School and High School can do that, why can't college age folk? Get a clue, what Frats and Sororities stand for is not positive or worthwhile.
..
by Ken
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 1:18 PM
You know what, I understand now, you just have problems outside of this whole war/anti-war deal.
You know why I brought up sororities, yet you still want to spin stupid shit.
A fraternity is a brotherhood, a sorority is a sisterhood. I don't know how anyone could find anything wrong with either of them.
We used to have little sisters in our fraternity, is that what you wanted to see? I don't even think it was our call when we stopped taking little sisters.
...
by ...
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 2:09 PM
You're apparently not reading what I wrote. Frats and Sororities are based on gender discrimination. That's why people have a problem with them.
..
by Ken
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 3:02 PM
The difference is, they don't discriminate based on negative assumptions. It can almost be equated with having a girl's bathroom and having a guy's bathroom. By being in fraternity or a sorority you're in no way saying that the other gender is inferior.
q
by gender roles and sybolism
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 4:10 PM
sorry to butt in here but i think maybe that as soon as you divide (genders, races whatever) that is where problems begin. sure it unites a certain group but seperates that group from other perspectives. yeah there are biological differencs but we're talking about gender roles in society.(at least i am) when females were told when they were young "you're not good at analytical thought"-guess what-when they grew up their minds didn't processes math and science the same way males did. there have been a number of studies to prove this. im not saying frats believe this in any way, but frats are a symbol gender(and sometimes economic) division-and this plays in society's mind- and maybe continues out-dated and straight up wrong perceptions of men and women.
i'm glad to see that non-activist are contibuting to this site.
i dont know. maybe we're making a non-issue(frat v. protesters) into an issue. i guess i'm not helping matters.
gender roles and symbols
by q
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 4:15 PM
ooops! i mixed up the titled and name-good thing i didn't vote in florida.
also a few typos:
--there are biological differencs between men and women--
frats are symbols of gender...division
..
by Ken
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 5:22 PM
Yea, I can see how people would assume certain things about Fraternities and what not. I don't quite know about the economic thing though, as I think you'll find young people from affluent backgrounds all over.
However, I do agree with you q pertaining to this not being an issue deserving of so much attention.
money talks
by q
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 5:30 PM
i only meant that some people are unable to participate in greek life because they cannot afford dues-that's all.
Money does not talk
by O
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 5:41 PM
Money may talk in almost every other instituition in the world, but in the fraternity I belong to we do not make an issue of it. Please stop the generalizations, they only propagate lies and stereotypes.
socially ignorant
by Devon
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 10:10 PM
I feel sorry for these poor DUmb sods. They obviously have trouble with basic social interactions, as can be seen from their actions on Sunday as well as the fact that they have to pay dues to have friends.
..
by Ken
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 10:51 PM
Of course we can't function socially...
1. About � of all chief executives on Forbes Super 500 list of America�s largest corporations were members of college fraternities.
"Social skills needed to gain admittance into the Greek system are the same aptitudes that can later give them a leg-up in corporate climbing," says Forbes magazine.
2. Only about 8.5% of full-time university undergraduates are members of either a fraternity or sorority.
3. Fraternities have produced 48% of all US presidents.
4. Fraternities have produced 42% of US senators.
5. Fraternities have produced 30% of US Congressmen.
6. Fraternities have produced 40% of Supreme Court justices.
social skills?
by greek to me
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 11:19 PM
those things don't require social skills. they require screwing people over and establishing a good-old-boys network.
good job with that!
re: ken (...)
by Quinten
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 11:37 PM
I think those statistics have been widely debunked. They get pulled out all the time to justify frats (I remember them being used back when the Lobster Boy incident took place, heh) but they are completely made up. Not to say that everything is bad about frats -- I have friends in both fraternities and sororities -- but just that you should check your sources.
wow
by Ken
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 11:37 PM
What a load of biased crap...
Any sensible person would think holding a political position, especially one that deals with _national_ issues would require some sort of social skills. It doesn't matter, however, because I am arguing with a virtual brick wall.
..
by Ken
Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 2:11 AM
Well supposedly the figures came from the interfraternity conference, I guess it would be easy to check the presidents, but the rest would require some more research
Frat Stats
by Rovin' Workman
Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 2:23 AM
Most of the stats quoted above would seem to me to be great reasons *not* to join. Most working folks do not like politicians. They have a shoddy track record.
Frat Stats-Axis of egoes
by Gen. Franks
Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 2:29 AM
Turning out that kind of scum almost qualifies the quad as a terrorist training camp. You know what that means...
???
by Ken
Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 2:30 AM
You miss the point.
He claimed that the fraternity had overt social problems.
His last comment also suggested that fraternity members can only make friends within their fraternity. I was merely showing him that fraternities have produced socially accepted people.
They had to interact with someone outside of the fraternity to get to where they are.
while we're quoting statistics
by george washington
Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 11:06 AM
i read somewhere once that 100% of US presidents have been white men.
obviously that's because women and minorities lack the social skills necessary to get ahead in politics!
old george can't tell a lie . . .
apology
by jan
Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 6:09 PM
I am writing to apologize for grouping the frat boys into a stereotypical mold, but I couldn't help but react that way when I saw their signs that read "BOMB PARIS!" and heard them scream "KILL ARABS!!" If that isn't being closeminded and prejudice, I don't know what is. Also, Its a well known fact that all of the presidents but one are Freemasons, a "secret society" for men only. The world is controlled by the few wealthy white men at the top. Research it, its true!
how stupid
by Ken
Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 8:22 PM
What's the point of your arguement, "george"?
You can't equate politicians being in fraternities and also being socially able with prejudices based on race. In no way does that make sense.
I'm saying basically, "If these people can do this, then they must meet certain requirements. Therefore them being in fraternities shows no evidence of affecting any certain aspects of their character."
You're saying, "If these people are all of the same type, then anyone who isn't of this type must not meet the same requirements as these people."
Your logic is severely flawed. You're trying to use the same old "I'm going to sarcastically agree with you, but twist it into something extreme, so you'll see the error" arguement, when it obviously doesn't apply. Try again.
the requirements
by george
Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 8:31 PM
what you're saying is that "if these people can do this, they must meet certain requirements." please elaborate. what i'm saying is, what ARE the requirements to be president? scummy people get elected president, Ken. it's not a game of superior intelligence or good ideas. it's a game of politics. who can help their friends get power and prestige. those are the requirements, they're bunk, and your organization does NOT automatically make you superior to ANYONE. try again.
..
by Ken
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 12:56 AM
HOLY SHIT I CANT BELIEVE THIS. ARE YOU RETARDED???
I AM ONLY SAYING THAT FRATERNITIES CAN YIELD THOSE WHO ARE SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE, NOT ANYONE SUPERIOR, NOT ANYONE INFERIOR.
im sorry for abusing caps lock but it's the easiest way to express how frustruated i am with you and your ridiculous interpretations of what i am saying
jesus christ
by Ken
Thursday, Mar. 20, 2003 at 1:01 AM
socially ignorant
by Devon � Tuesday March 18, 2003 at 10:10 PM
I feel sorry for these poor DUmb sods. _They obviously have trouble with basic social interactions, as can be seen from their actions on Sunday as well as the fact that they have to pay dues to have friends._
Read the god damn thread "george"
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