community-based, non-corporate, participatory media
Video of Frat Confrontation
by Brad Cue
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 9:43 PM
Video of Fraternity Confrontation on CMU's campus March 16 2003.
Video of Fraternity Confrontation on CMU's campus March 16 2003.
I was the first person from the march to notice the fraternity boys had made signs and were chanting. I immediately ran up to simply document what was on their signs, but things started to get ugly. It looked like one frat brother in a white tank top was going to strike a protestor on a bicycle, but he quickly backed off when the camera was pointed his direction. Then I noticed a rather animated frat brother screaming obscenities at the top of his lungs. Naturally, I ran over to capture what he was saying. He then approached me in quite the menacing manner. I was sure he was going to hit me. At this point, some of the peace march participants had come up behind me, and luckily there was no physical confrontation. The video cuts off just as I mutter "Don't touch me" as he's really close and coming towards me. I honestly wasn't expecting to be getting video that long into the day. After my camera shut off, I was still in the front line of people at the fraternity lawn. I was approached by a few frat brothers in an aggressive manner, but was not struck. I did however notice that there was at least one of them with a baseball bat. No, they weren't looking for a fight or anything... Not those kind fraternity brothers. There was a verbal exchange between a fraternity brother and myself however;
F: "Get off our lawn! This is private property"
B: -silence-
F: "Step back off the lawn!"
B: -silence, I stepped forward-
F: -stepped forward, within an inch of my face, screaming at me about the lawn-
B: "Don't hit me. I will file assault charges, and theres lots of cops around."
F: "I'm not going to hit you!
B: "I'm not going to move."
Maybe not the wisest situation to find myself in, but I knew who was immediately behind me. I also knew that if anything were to happen I had plenty of cameras around me along with a few hundred of my closest friends by my side. Stepping back from him could have made him more aggressive in my mind as he would have noticed a sort of weakness or compliance in me. Through experience I've found that most bullies don't escalate their actions if you don't show a weakness.
The fraternities out there want us to believe that they are not a bunch of angry, confrontational, potentially violent (Remember: baseball bat. None of us carry weapons.) males? This is the response I would expect to come from a fraternity, and now its on video for all to see. If they really wanted to change their image, scenes like this wouldn't be possible. Not all frat brothers are bad people, but neither are all gang members, but that doesn't mean you really want to associate with their organization does it?
Fraternity Confrontation
by Brad Cue
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 9:43 PM
QuickTime movie at 3.5 mebibytes
..
by ..
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 10:23 PM
Maybe you should have removed yourself from their property, that would seem like the optimal action to be taken, no?
"Peace Protestors"
by Benjamin Hackett
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 10:24 PM
bhackett@andrew.cmu.edu
Let me explain something.
The peace protestors were the agressors, as shown by the VIDEO and by the QUOTES.
Read what is underneath that picture, he wouldn't leave private property and he certainly did not have a permit.
Regards
For America Now Founder
Ben Hackett
Response to your bias
by Paul Day
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 10:35 PM
pday@andrew.cmu.edu
In your sadly biased article about the confrontation with the CMU fraternities you succeeded in nothing but discrediting yourself. By using multiple stereotypes and extremely prejudiced language, you actually made yourself appear to be the one in need of a change of image. Furthermore, your quotes of the conversation with the fraternity brother prove you were in the wrong, coming onto private property and refusing to leave when asked. You were never struck or harmed in any way, nor were those the intentions of any of the brothers. Much to the contrary, the "peace" protestors were the ones spatting on fraternity members, and one even prepared to swing a stick at a fraternity member, only to be foiled at the last second by one of his wiser companions. Do the public a favor, make sure you're fully informed and a bit less prejudiced before publishing another one sided piece of garbage like this article. Any intelligent replies welcome.
...
by ...
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 10:42 PM
Actually, If you took a moment to watch the video, you'd clearly see the fellow from the frat basically chasing the cameraman while he was on the public sidewalk. Peaceful? Non-Confrontational? I don't think so.
By the way, responding to violence in the community -- whether it be the bigoted actions of a few in isolated cases, or support for a murdering U.S. regime is not only appropriate but a moral responsibiltiy! It's not worthwhile getting caught up in what tactic is most effective for this, but it is necessary to not condone such messages. Advocating murder in my town is never acceptable.
Biased? I think not...
by Brad Cue
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 10:45 PM
Nah, my article isn't biased. Its a first hand account of what happened. You guys never did address why a frat brother was brandishing a baseball bat if all they wanted was peace. You also didn't address how the confrontation began, as one frat brother agressively approached a protestor on a bicycle. Its on there, go look at the video again. And it doesn't address the guy screaming at me at the end, coming towards me, appearing as if he's going to strike me. And finally, you don't address my comment about how in my experience bullies don't escalate their actions if you don't show a weakness. I didn't show a weakness, and thus I didn't get struck. I felt that if I had stepped backwards, the frat brother inches from my face would have shoved or otherwise struck me. None of us can say what would have happened, but I can say what I was feeling at the time.
Watch the video and explain to me how I or anyone else in the march is the agressor. The first shouts you hear? Frat brothers. The first profanities hurled at another person? Frat brothers. The first person to yell and run towards another person in an agressive manner? Frat brother. Please enlighten me.
...
by ken
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 10:52 PM
Hmm... yea you're right, and I wonder at the same time, why was a fraternity brother brandishing a baseball glove? Instead of peace, they chose baseball!
NO YOU ARE WRONG
by Benjamin Hackett
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 10:59 PM
bhackett@andrew.cmu.ed
Seems I caught you in your SPINNING WEB OF LIES.
You cut the video right before I came up, I as the white kid with the flag, and restrained the brother.
I then told you to get off the property.
If you felt threatened it was because you were tresspassing. Never having tresspassed, that must be how one feels while doing so.
Right... Look again.
by Brad Cue
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 11:06 PM
Its really not worth arguing over the content of video footage with the blind, but what the hell. If you watch the video footage again, at the end with the nice gent in the white shirt coming towards me, look at where he was standing when it began. About a foot from the edge of the sidewalk. I was very clearly on the sidewalk as he agressively approached me. As he chased me backwards, there's a frame or two showing that he is on the sidewalk, screaming and chasing me backwards. Look at the frame below. See those bricks in the background? The only way I can get those in the shot behind him is if he's standing on the sidewalk.
Now tell me... Who was the agressor again? Give it up. Did you hear me shouting obscenities on the tape? Did you see my arms flailing towards anyone? Didn't think so...
Addressing your concerns
by Paul Day
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 11:10 PM
pday@andrew.cmu.edu
First of all, in reference to the fraternity brothers brandishing baseball bats as weapons, you again leave much out of your story. You conveniently failed to see the other fraternity brother with the baseball glove. Secondly, who's to decide whether an approach on a person is agressive? That is completely a personal opinion with which you attempt to doctor the situation in your favor. Finally, you yet again prove your prejudice by referring to the fraternity brother as a bully. Why on earth you believe you would've been struck for complying with thte brothers demands is beyond me. Your argument is weak, as well as youy video "support" which is again cut to only support your side of the argument, and which captures an extremely small percentage of the event.
Weapons
by Brad Cue
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 11:19 PM
Whatever. Maybe they were playing baseball before we got there. Maybe not. But last I checked a baseball bat doesn't magically get any softer if there's someone within earshot with a baseball glove on. Is a knife not a weapon any more if you have a cucumber to slice in your other hand? Is a gun no longer a weapon if you have targets to practice your marksmanship with?
I'd say that an agressive manner would be shouting obscenities, flailing your limbs about and chasing someone into the street. It sure as hell wasn't a friendly manner he approached me in, but I guess thats just a matter of perception huh?
property?
by m.
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 11:22 PM
I think it should be noted that DU doesn't own shit. CMU owns all of the property on both sides of forbes avenue where we are free to march as CMU students and non-CMU students, as well as on the sidewalk and streets.
DU is on CMU property, and the frat boys have no claim to "private property" on the space. It is also clear that the threats of violence (baseball bats, verbal threats) extended to those on public streets and sidewalks.
DU frat boys think the world is their private property, and they are wrong -- even their rich daddies and their lawyers can't change that. (DU has a well documented history of engaging in unprovoked violence against those who they don't like and then using high priced lawyers to bail them out)
comments
by Paul Day
Monday, Mar. 17, 2003 at 11:49 PM
pday@andrew.cmu.edu
Here are the problems with your argument. Simply because an object that can be used as a weapon was present, does not mean that is why its there. Also, just because you are approached in an unfriendly manner doesnt mean youre going to be struck. I was most definately approached in an unfriendly manner by many of your protestors, and was also spat on, very peaceful. If I were to argue like you do, I could whine about fearing for my personal health, for the signs carried by the protestors could be used as weapons. All in all, there was no more of a threat to you than there was to the fraternity members. I would even go as far as to say that we behaved BETTER than your protestors, after all it takes alot to be spat on and take it with a smile. Thats when the credibility of your protest ended, and ours was strengthened.
Credibility
by lookingfordona
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 12:11 AM
Anyone holding a sign that says "Nuke Paris" would be remiss in thinking that he or she had credibility in the first place. "More Bombs, Cheap Gas" doesn't help any either.
from someone else on the front lines....
by Brian
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 1:07 AM
artriotmedia@aol.com
I was up front the majority of the march. While I can't speak for what may have gone on at the back of the march, I can say that when we approached we were 100% peaceful, despite the screams of one other marcher that he was going to give the frat boys, "a piece of his fucking foot in their asses".. Most around me criticized that guy for his responses, though they were somewhat apropriate as I personaly felt threatened by the frat boys. Baseball bats or no baseball bats, most of those guys were big, I'm a scrawny white boy, screaming at me or just approaching me is threatening if you weigh 200 lbs.
I checked out your site, quit calling yourself libertarian asshole. The offical stance of the libertarian party is that they are against this war(and any war for that matter). And how are you libertarian and independent? Did you eat paint chips when you were younger? Go check out infowars.com, learn about the libertarian view on this war, the present administration, and the war on terror. And what exactly are these "wholesome traditional American values", you claim to represent? Whats wholesome about war? What value does it support? Typicaly when someone says "traditoinal American values", they mean Christian values. If this is what your saying you support, read your bible my friend. The present administration most certainly doesn't represent that.
stop warmongers...sterilize frat boys
by susyzimzel
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 2:07 AM
susyzimzel@yahoo.com
Rock on, Brian. You made some really good points.
...
by Ken
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 2:11 AM
m, have you ever heard of a lease? Yes, DU leases the housing and therefore has more share in it than some random student, asshole. Of course you didn't know that when you live in the fraternity housing, you pay the fraternity, not the school.
is that you ken?
by ...
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 2:22 AM
Egbuna, Ken 862-3764 973-885-2038
oo how clever
by Ken
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 2:37 AM
Yes, you can give me a call if you want, it's not that big of a deal.
miss
by thugbot
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 2:39 AM
wow, we have officially hit barrel bottom. keep those knucklesdraggin. cant spell DUH without DU.
hey
by John
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 2:42 AM
I agree there is a lot of anger being expressed towards DU and the frats in general. The display and hollering from DU was a big provocation to a group of people who were already really pissed off. The reaction from some of the protesters was counter-productive and stupid.
It's not really advantageous for either DU or the activist community to get into a escalated conflict about the war. Why don't both sides just make a concious effort to ignore the other one. What's the point in posturing to the other side? The only way a real conflict is going to end is bad. Do people really want to see fights, destruction of personal property, arrests, DU kicked off campus, people expelled from school, and everything else that could happen in situations like this that are so volatile. It's a powderkeg such waiting to go off. Sit back and re-asses. Is it worth it to either of you all to start shit? Does anyone want to see someone injured because of this shit? There were a lot of kids in the crowd on Sunday. What if someone had really lost thier cool. I know a couple protesters were close and I saw a couple brother srestrain other brothers who looked close to losing it. What's it going to take for people to think shit has gone to far? Some protester beat up by a bunch of people, the next thousand person march routed past the DU house in percieved retailiation? The DU house completely destroyed by a couple hundred pissed off people in masks?
Frat brothers: make fun of stupid activists all you want. Drink beer, do community service, support the troops how you see fit, hold your own rally, kick it with the ladies, and everything else you normally do.
Anti-war protesters: make your signs, hold your vigils, disrupt traffic and government institutions, have fun in your lives, and whatever else you think needs to be done to stop the war.
just one thing
by Ken
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 2:56 AM
You know who I am, and you know my phone number, how about letting me know who you are? At least I have the confidence to toss in my first name when posting.
Tommy Franks
by R
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 5:37 AM
It is very easy to say that members of DU are unwilling to personally support the war effort. But as I pointed out in another thread, we are making sacrifices and contributions to support this campaign (none of which involve overturning dumpsters, by the way). In fact, one of our brothers is running the show, General Tommy R. Franks, Commander in Chief United States Central Command. He has and will continue to recieve our full support along with all of our other servicemen and women.
"support"
by jwg
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 8:36 AM
support all you want. but don't question anything when you are 'supporting' a pine box carrying your brothers to their final resting place.
And to the kid with the "I drive an SUV" sign. I'm sure your brothers will be thrilled to know what a comfortable ride you have while they're sweating and dodging bombs and dying thousands of miles from home. Good on yer son!
Discipline?
by Tracey B.
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 9:06 AM
darkroom_dweller@hotmail.com
Has anyone showed this to the Pan Hellenic board? or any of the other boards? Perhaps go to their Charter group. If they indeed acted inappropriate, this should be shown to CMU. More than likely, this will be thier last strike (in addition to the lobster house incident).
Pan_hellenic Resolution
by George K.
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 10:12 AM
dodgerambler@yahoo.com
Wow. Will the pan-hellenic council pass resolution 1441, requiring inspections of the DU frat house for Bats of Peace Protestor Destruction? At least the P-H council has more legitamacy in this situation than the UN does in the world situation.
I agree with the only sensible person posting here, a few posts back. John made the only human, adult points on this board. The arguements will escalate to vilence on BOTH (yes both, admit it) sides, and you will become a microcosm of the situation that you are discussing.
once again
by sharpie
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 11:42 AM
I knew I could count on you, Georgie. Once again you contribute for the edification of all your blindingly inadequate analysis. Why not do us all a favor and fill your own mailbox with self-congratulatory drivel, rather than embarrass yourself by posting to a public forum?
Everyone else with a modicum of sense: whatever the activists did cannot excuse the signs those fraternity brothers proudly stood behind. Whether they believed the messages or not, they should be ashamed to advocate war for profit, to call for mass murder to satiate their greed. Shame on you, Delta U.
To all the frat brothers who stood quietly by while the more belligerent held forth: you are equally responsible. It's hard to tell a friend they're in the wrong, but sometimes it is necessary. Next time, speak up. Tell your brothers to wise up; human life is more important than their SUVs.
and this might be completely obvious
by sharpie
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 12:01 PM
But the individual who's menacing the cameraman at the end of the clip isn't just flailing his arms around. You'll note that he's clearly making punching gestures before the camera closes in. And it's hard to disagree that "get outta my f**king face" are fighting words. It seems there were threats of violence on both sides, and the video shows only the fraternity brothers, but to an eyewitness it was very clear who started it. I do not intend to generalize about fraternities, or even about Delta U, but those who defend the action of these students are committing an injustice. You can oppose the peace movement, and still stand against hate, bigotry, and menacing violence. But you're sure to find a commitment to the latter necessarily challenges your position on the former. Sure, it's easier to give up, like these frat boys did, embracing hate and bigotry. But you won't. It wouldn't be the right thing to do.
obvious..
by Ken
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 2:59 PM
IF he wanted to hit him, he would have... didn't you even look at the dialogue? He says "I'm not going to hit you"...
lobster house
by q
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 7:07 PM
are these some of the guys that destroyed the lobster guy's(sorry i forget his name) house? holy shit. i thought american values were tolerence and celebration of difference. hey, it is your right to express yourself about this war but the lobster house was FUCKED UP!!!(sorry to bring up old shit)
[+]
.
by Ken
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 8:28 PM
Mistakes are made.
once again dull boy
by George K.
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 8:59 PM
dodgerambler@yahoo.com
Sharpie only resorts to insults and non-solutions. He/she never seems to post real work, just his/her one sided drivel.
Now the real fun begins, with the PRO war rallies.
http://saturn.he.net/~danger/freepnet/
The populace will grow more supportive of the president, and more will tire of you bleating doves warbling in the streets.
Maybe CMU can be the modern Kent State, and some pot-smoking band can write a song about you fallen heros outside the frat?
lobster boy
by l
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 9:39 PM
The lobster boy incident has absolutely NOTHING to do with this incident, and you look completely uneducated to even bring it up. As you all know there were many other people other than DU's at this rally and any one of the war protesters could have some misdemeanor in their past, but we don't get the privilege of knowing about it. Back up your argument with something relevant for once.
gagahahhh
by Evan N
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 9:45 PM
Dude georgie pal last time i checked opinion polls of the support for the president AND support for a unilateral war have FALLEN. And what pro war protests, the one with the grossly inflated Count of 2500 at the point a few weeks ago? last time i checked the convergence had about 5000. Also, it wasn't even a pro war rally man, it was a support our troops rally. the newspaper dude is getting mad letters about how he construed it as a pro war rally, and the letters are showing up on the editorial page. George why dont u show up at the federal building protest and come chat us. I will gladly leave the protest and sit down somewhere where we can have a nice civilized discussion about the war and have it with you, as i am sure many people would. Whats stopping you?
more holes in your story
by l&j
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 9:49 PM
You fail to mention that DU and friends were sitting on their property, not following your protest down the street. It was YOU who stopped in front of the house and YOU who approached us. As well remember that there were other parties involved besides this one fraternity.
As for the baseball bat, perhaps this person who was interrupted in their all-American pastime was holding onto his bat only because he was scared that the protesters would steal it and use it against him. Isn't it fun to make unjustified assumptions?
And one more thing, about that First Amendment. It governs our right to speak freely, but it does not govern the tastefulness of what is spoken. Don' t get so worked up over a few signs that may have been serious or may not have been, when we are all allowed to say what we think and feel. There is no right or wrong here.
lobster boy
by q
Tuesday, Mar. 18, 2003 at 11:42 PM
"the two incidents have nothing to do with each other"
that's why i said you have the right to express your views. i was just thinking out loud, "wow that's the same frat that fucked up the house?" i never said everyone who was outside on sunday participated in destoying the house.
why insult me, though?
as ken said, people make mistakes. well i made a mistake by helping turn this non-issues into an issue.
it is impossible to have a conversation via computers.
did they follow us?
by Brian
Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 12:35 AM
artriotmedia@aol.com
There were three or four rather buff looking guys marching thought the majority of the march on the sidewalk. I don't recall seeing them at the rally and I believe they joined in sometime during our initial march across CMU. Were these frat boys from DU? I saw several of the black blocish people pointing over at them and saying to watch them. We proceded to move away because we weren't sure what was going on. I didn't see them cause any problems while I was near them, nor did could I hear anything being said by them. Does anyone know who I'm talking about?
..
by Ken
Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 12:45 AM
Just wondering.. what's a black blocish person?
black blocs are.....
by Brian
Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 2:11 AM
artriotmedia@aol.com
Those up front dressed in black with masks. I said black blocish because I wasn't entirely sure if they were a bloc or not. Black bloc information can be found at http://www.infoshop.org/blackbloc.html.
..
by Ken
Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 2:23 AM
Oh that's interesting, so I guess those were the people who tried to turn over the dumpster at Craig street or wherever that was. It's good to see some of the people marching had the decency to pick the dumpster back up.
Sorry I'm a bit off topic
--
by --
Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 2:30 AM
yes, they were undercover cops. the black bloc crowd was pointing them out so that people would know
to watch their backs in case the police tried anything and to make a special effort to avoid and not antagonize them. not a good idea to get in arguments with cops if you don't know they're cops.
undercovaa
by Evan N
Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 7:22 AM
Yeah i thought i saw a few dudes in the actual crowd of the march that looked like undercover cops, but this hypothesis is based pretty much on age and i wouldnt like to call someone an undercover policeman just because they are an older person, but it still makes you nervous. Maybe i'm just paranoid.
undercova
by Brian
Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 8:35 AM
artriotmedia@aol.com
These guys were pretty young. They looked about college age. Backwards baseball caps, shorts, typical tshirts, not sure how else to describe them. They looked like the majority of people I went to high school with. Definitely sports fans, they were built to well to not be. Thats why I made the assumption they were frat boys, they resembled the one's my ex girlfriend hangs out with all the time.
special marchers
by q
Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 10:03 AM
are you guys talking about the three guys who joined the march on forbes heading back to cmu, one of whom was wearing a greenish t-shirt. if so, my buddy saw them come out of the exxon station.
Undercovers
by -
Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 10:26 AM
There were 4 undercover cops with the march. 1 was a woman with a video camera who is known by activists here. The other three were the big guys in T-Shirts, one greenish, one a Bahama's T, the other, I don't remember. They were talking to the known cop, which is how we were pretty sure they were also cops. The reason it looked like they were coming out of Exxon is that they went over there to protect the property of a violent multi-national corporation, but they walked with the march nearly the entire way.
thats them
by Brian
Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 1:36 PM
artriotmedia@aol.com
Yup, thats definatly them. I didn't see the woman, or didn't notice her at least. I'm going to make sure to bring a mask to the next march, I was next to them for quite awhile. Is there any way to get advanced notification of this type stuff? Other then just listening to it being spread around? A call on my cell phone about undercovers would be nice, especialy as this could get the info out to others quite quickly.
--
by --
Wednesday, Mar. 19, 2003 at 2:05 PM
undercovers-
they are usually pretty easy to spot. in this case we actually took pictures up close of all of them which might be posted here. the key to being safe and knowing stuff like this at a demo is building up a level of trust with others there. if people know you, have worked with you before, etc then they will tell you things. You should preferably have a affinity group to watch your back and know the situation. One set of eyes isn't enough to keep track of everything.
![[masthead]](/images/masthead_140.png)