thoughts on the anti-war protests
by zack
Monday, Mar. 24, 2003 at 11:37 AM
there are problems that must be addressed regarding recent anti-war protests (i know it's long but please read it)
hi there,
following some of the recent news on the site, i think it's important to point out that there are LOTS of people who have been participating in Pittsburgh peace events who have some legitimate grievances with how things have been proceeding. I have read a number of people's comments that are insightful because they point to a number of unresolved issues that challenge the effectiveness of pittsburgh peace protests.
despite the fact that i am a biker, anarchist, punk, graduate student, and teacher, i have been thoroughly frustrated with the actions of certain people at these events. while it's not expected that everyone at an event must act in a uniform manner, there are expectations that i have of other people at a protest. first and foremost, if you want to protest the Gap and sweatshop labor, then organize a protest for it. similarly, if you want to organize a protest against cars, go to a critical mass event, or plan a protest against automobiles. when people harass motorists, shout slogans at SUV drivers, and disturb businesses during a march, they make it much easier for police to justify their actions, and more importantly, the meaning behind these messages is NOT being communicated to people. before i get a mini-lecture about the interconnections of various socioeconomic problems from some political newbie on the next thread, please understand that there are many of us who are highly aware of the links between capitalism, corporations, car culture, the police, and the war. despite these connections, there is a time and a place for appropriate actions. it's totally naive to think that shouting at drivers will somehow make them rethink their position about owning a car, similarly, it's naive to think that disorderly behavior at a peace rally (regardless of how insignificant the action) will not bring more negative attention from the police. i agree with dan kyle's statement that pittsburgh is unique because we use a combination of tactics in our protests, but i also think it's fair for people to express their displeasure when a handful of egotistical children use the protests as a forum for their own personal political agenda. nobody gives a shit if you're an anarchosyndicalist, a conservative businesswoman, or a communist...the point of the protest is to bring people together in a message of peace. i have grown extremely tired of people showing up to these events in some feeble effort to act out a scene from the Seattle WTO protests, complete with facial bandanas and gasmasks. despite the fact that i sing in a punk band and have lots of friends in the punk community, the sight of a dirty kid dressed in all black with 4 bandanas tied around his face, shouting in the face of SUV drivers does not send a peaceful message to people in the community. furthermore, it doesn't communicate a damn thing to anybody else, other than reaffirming their opinions that punk-looking people dress funny and shout loudly.
i'm not telling people how to dress, or how to behave when you are in your house, or at a show......but have some respect for the fact that mass media has the ability to present the protest in any manner they see fit. as individuals such as martin luther king, saul alinsky, ceasar chavez, and angela davis have shown, the media can be a powerful tool when it is used in the right way. why don't we try to use this to our advantage and take some of the following things into consideration:
-people expect protestors to look like punks and hippies. perhaps it would be a good idea to have parents, older folks, and other straight looking people leading the way during the next march. peace protests are acts of symbolism that attempt to get others to change their mind about war. if we recognize the fact that people have a stereotyped view of what protestors look and act like (young, dreadlocked, long hair, tattoos, etc.) then we should try to disrupt that image by having older folks, families, and anti-war veterens leading the way. this sends a symbolic message to people in the community that "regular folks" are concerned about the war. this sort of strategy makes it more difficult for the media to portray protestors in a stereotypical manner. i am not suggesting that people cut their hair, or that people like myself should cover our tattoos. such suggestions would be absurd. what i am suggesting is that when you are dealing with a symbolic action, appearances do play a role in the way that the public perceives the event. for this reason, when all the dress-up revolutionaries cover their faces in an attempt to look like some hybrid between old school cowboys and the Zapatistas, they must realize that many people in the public are scared by this imagery. as a result, this can send a negative message to the public, and give the impression that the event is being led by "radicals." i'll be the first to admit that encouraging "radical looking" people to not lead the march is conforming to societal standards of dress/appearance and elite norms, but when we are trying to persuade people in the general public of our views, we must acknowledge the connotations that people attach to appearances. if people have problems with this idea, they should consider what is more important, trying to send the most powerful message we can to the public, or using protests as a revolutionary fashion show. on a more cynical note, and this is my own personal opinion, there is no reason why anyone should hide their face at a protest. people should be proud to be seen exercising their civil liberties and speaking out against injustice, rather than hiding their identity behind a makeshift mask.
-in keeping with the notion that peace protests are symbolic acts, i think it is an incredibly irresponsible idea to organize protests at the federal building, especially during rush hour. i understand the desire to shut down the federal building and send a message to the federal government, but with the passing of the Patriot acts, federal agents and police have the ability to SEVERELY crack down on individuals who pose a clear and present threat to federal institutions. while everyone involved knows that peaceful protestors are not a threat to public safety, this is not the view of the federal government. attempting to shut down federal institutions is an extremely risky idea, and it puts people in danger of being arrested and made examples of----namely, by utilizing aspects of the Patriot acts in order to charge people with more severe charges, such as conspiracy to commit a terrorist act, conspiracy to start a riot, trespassing on federal property, and the list goes on and on. while this may not a concern to a lot of people out there, i think it is irresponsible to put people in a situation in which they are at the mercy of a police force and juridical system that has been greatly enhanced by the Patriot acts. in terms of the media, protests at federal facilities can easily be construed as threats to public safety, and reporters are more prone to focus on this aspect during their coverage---sending out the message that there are threats to federal employees and facilities during a state of High terrorist alerts. i have emphasized the fact that peace protests are symbolic because nobody expects that the president is going to get on national TV and say, "people of the united states, i have just heard that there was a protest in downtown pittsburgh against the war, and for this reason we are stopping all operation in Iraq." the reason we protest is to send a message to the public in order to try to build a stronger movement. if we organize people to protest at federal institutions and expect the police not to utilize the Patriot acts against us, then we are as naive as we are careless.
Furthermore, the idea that stopping traffic will somehow jolt people out of their war-soaked, consumer consciousness is giving ourselves a little too much credit, and not paying enough attention to the lack of communication taking place. i am sympathetic to the idea that we can't let people think that it is "business as usual," but people are NOT going to be persuaded to our side when we turn the situation into an immediate battle of Us vs. Them. the attitude i have heard thus far is that a few minutes of traffic is nothing compared to the loss of life taking place in Iraq. in other words, the people driving home are immediately on the WRONG side of the issue, and WE need to tell them what the real deal is. it is a big assumption to suggest that everyone driving home is automatically a war supporter, and this antagonism is fueled by people who want to use the peace rally as a forum against car culture. how about having some solidarity with the people driving home from their shitty jobs? instead of shouting in their face and causing traffic and frustration downtown, maybe we should make people small care packages to pass out to people in traffic. we could fill them with candy and write a note like this:
"We sympathize with the fact that you have probably had a tough day at work, and we want to let you know that there are thousands of people in Pittsburgh who are against the war in Iraq. We are trying to spread a message of peace and we encourage you to learn more about the situation in Iraq, and to talk with peace activists in order to learn more about what they represent. Thanks for your time and enjoy the candy."
How could people refuse?? I know that this is only example of what could be done instead of shutting down traffic, but at least it's an idea that doesn't alienate people downtown, encourage the use of police violence, and make protestors look exactly like their slogan shouting conservative opponents.
if people want to continue gathering at the federal builiding, you are putting your own safety and the safety of those around you in jeapordy. being arrested without the conscious intent of breaking an unjust law is not an act of civil disobedience....it's just a stupid way to give the cops extra money in fines, the chance to slap protestors around, and the opportunity to allow peaceful folks to be brought up on federal conspiracy charges. i understand that people who were arrested the other day were not doing anything wrong, but what i am suggesting is that planning to shut down a federal institution is not is simple as it may seem, and it greatly increases the chance that people will be arrested without just cause. i know this doesn't sit well with some people, but for those of you that want to rot in jail as a martyr, go right ahead. avoiding jail whenever possible seems to be a smart idea, and future planning for peace events should take this sentiment into consideration. what not have rallies in oakland? in the park?
aside from the sense of personal (some would argue egotistical) satisfaction that comes along with protesting a federal building, what will it actually achieve? the best case scenario is that we disrupt them for a few hours. the worst case scenario is that people get the shit kicked out of them by police, and potentially brought up on charges that are more stringent than those faced by protestors at any other time in recent US history.
my two main point are as follows:
1) it's important to consider how we are representing ourselves to the public, and we should do everything in our power to appeal to the masses of Pittsburghers who are on-the-fence about the war. Pittsburgh is a pretty conservative city, and it might be useful to play to this factor and put a attach a more conservative face to the peace efforts. if this offends people who want to wear their punkest outfit out to the protests, replete with pseudo-cowboy bandanas and black flags, then your attachment to your appearance is as obsessive as the yuppies you love to hate. in addition, we must stay focused on the issue at hand and avoid meaningless and impotent attacks on corporate chain stores and automobile drivers while we are marching for peace. these are important issues, but they deserve their own protest/march.
2) attempting to shut down federal facilities is extremely dangerous, and with the advent of the Patriot acts, could potentially be followed by federal charges related to terrorism (or the conspiracy to committ terrorist acts). organizers should consider different venues for protests despite the fact that the federal builiding is an obvious choice for symbolic dissent. i firmly believe that protests in another site will draw more people out to the events, and will spread a more positive message about the peace movement. in addition, protests in another area will dramatically lessen the ability for police to utilize the patriot acts in prosecuting protestors who are arrested, and it will likely cut down on the number of folks arrested in the first place. finally, blocking traffic downtown at rush hour does not communicate a clear message to the public, it gives people downtown an excuse to take an anti-protest stance (which then spreads through stories at work, and those written in the newspaper), and ultimately it puts people in danger of getting hit by cars (which would definitely result in a riot).
i firmly believe that people should be protesting this war and i also believe in the power of protest to change public opinion, governmental policy, and corporate activities. However, there are ways in which we can organize ourselves that will take the fuel away from those who oppose us. If we want to stop the war, this is the challenge we must face.
thanks to everyone who contributes to independent media and anyone who read this long winded message,
peace,
zack
..
by ..
Monday, Mar. 24, 2003 at 1:49 PM
I guess you're proposing Pittsburgh go back to strictly permitted events and end the framework of diversity of tactics at events. Ya, that worked out great for the movement after 9-11.
There are PLENTY of events like that. If you want to go to an event like that then ATTEND IT. I don't see the point of your post. Different groups are organizing different events. If you don't want to go to an event that is advertised as disruptive and supportive of a diversity of tactics then DON'T. Why are you going on the illegal marches? There are permitted rallies, permitted picnic's, permitted vigils, permitted forums, permitted panels, and permitted marches from which you may choose.
Your real problem seems to be that you want everyone else to conform to what you're idea of what a effective non-violent event is. That isn't going to happen. Many people (around the country) feel that the movement must sometimes be disruptive.
As far as masks- hello! people wear masks for many reasons including safety from peper spray (used on Thursday), because some people are targeted if they're seen (pog on Thursday), etc.
if anything you will be seeing more and more of people in masks at unpermitted events.
Middle ground
by Jonas
Monday, Mar. 24, 2003 at 2:57 PM
I think the idea here is to find some middle ground. We get nowhere yelling at people. When confronted by screaming protesters, yelling about war/suvs/sweatshops/TV etc, most people get defensive and turn off what little powers of reason may be left after years of TV induced brain rot.
People want to be part of a community, and if they are afraid of it's members they will have no interest in the groups message, which can lead to protests turning into a large group of people preaching to the choir.
I was once on the other side of the fence. I signed on the dotted line and wore the uniform of our armed services. As I started paying attention I realized I was in the wrong place. The day our unit praticed riot control I knew my place was on the other side of the uniformed line..
I came to this conclusion by educating myself on the real story. I read everything I could get my hands on, both liberal and conservative and I made up my mind . Protests where few and far in between at this time.
If we want to change things we need to connect with people, not alienate them. I will continue to attend marches, and support all that goes on there, but a kind word and a smile goes futher than a slogan and a mask.
totally agree
by =+=
Monday, Mar. 24, 2003 at 3:10 PM
"kind word and a smile goes futher than a slogan and a mask."
totally agree, but the two aren't mutually exclusive. some of the most caring and thoughtful people I know wear masks at events. these are dangerous times and people need to protect themselves. this is obvious after so many organizers were targeted for arrest on Thursday. and I'd like to give a big thank you to the people in black. the one who gave the homeless guy money, the one who said sorry for the inconvenience to all the drivers we went past, the one who saved my girlfriend from arrest, the ones who serve food to the homeless every week through food not bombs, and the ones who although they are for more militant tactics have refrained from them in order to keep the solidarity between groups.
My comment
by PS Guy
Monday, Mar. 24, 2003 at 4:13 PM
I do not agree with some of the tactics that were on display Thursday. For example, throwing newspaper boxes into the street is one of those bad ideas that ends up as the highlight on the evening news.
But I would rather have a crowd of 1,000 employing a variety of tactics than a crowd of 100 standing around peace candles. I left the march when I thought there might be a risk of arrest (that was when the march headed onto the highway). Generally, I don't march when there is no escape route and the highway looked like a Bad Thing.
Although I myself don't wish to become an arrest victim, I can certainly respect people who feel that our involvement in Iraq is so morally unjust that they are going to stand in the street and lecture SUV drivers. Sadly, some of those SUV drivers were once activists 30 years ago, but have since been sucked into the American dream.
In context I think that the negative incidents that have occured at the Pittsburgh protests are minor. If you want examples of serious misconduct, check out peoples' behavior after their teams win national championships. We are talking major damage to public property. Newstrucks flipped over and destroyed, streetlights torn down, windows broken. Heck, if you live in State College, you have mass riots just for fun because the bars let out and some girl flashed the street from her balcony.
At the end of the day, we live in a country where DUI traffic deaths kill 40,000+ every year. American bombs do their fair share of killing too. As do tobacco products and guns. The pittsburgh anti-war protests have killed no one. Let's bring it! Just don't get me arrested. The pittsburgh anti-war protest do not threaten our democracy or our way of life.
One more thing... I am one of those anti-war protestors that has the utmost respect for our military. I love my country. I just think there are better ways to spend $80 billion than unilateral action prior to reaching an international consensus.
one objections
by Nick
Monday, Mar. 24, 2003 at 5:19 PM
pnk6@pitt.edu
�people expect protestors to look like punks and hippies. perhaps it would be a good idea to have parents, older folks, and other straight looking people leading the way during the next march.�
That�s downright dishonest. We are what we are. We should not scoot the �straight looking� people to the front as poster children. If the average person is to accept the peace movement, then he or she must accept it for what it really is: a coalition for non-violence and sensibility in dealing Iraq and other nations that has attracted people of a wide variety in their background, appearance and values. You may recognize a some fringe-sitting groups as a big part of the movement, but there is nothing wrong with being part of such a group.
For the most part, I agree with what you said about approaching people outside the protest movement in a more friendly way and nixing the violent aspects of demonstrations, but this tactic, I cannot accept at all.
sorry nick
by George K.
Monday, Mar. 24, 2003 at 5:57 PM
dodgerambler@yahoo.com
Sorry Nick, but what Zack is talking about is wagging the dog in the other direction. You have to learn how to manipulate the media and the face of your movement if you want to make its message more effective. I understand that your honesty is very important to you, and, ethically, that is very admirable. BUT, to project the best face of your peace march, Zack is suggesting that the camera that is sending out the most pictures to the most homes capture the most friendly faces it can connected to the anti-war march, so Joe six-pack can say to him self, "hey, if that guy thinks that way, he must have a good reason. I had better look into this...". Currently, all many people see is a group of planet of the apes stand in's, hopping on cars and throwing paper boxes, along with hippies and freaks in multitudes of cities. Seriously, no matter how much you rail against the crappiness of the concept, most people form their impressions by what they see on TV, and Zack hit the nail on the head.
Heck, I support the BUsh administrations position on this entire conflict, but I can analyze this impartially from a pure impression viewpoint. People are more apt to agree with others that are like themselves.
Think about it.
.
by EVan N
Monday, Mar. 24, 2003 at 7:21 PM
I agree with zack pretty much on everything he said
you attract more flies with honey than vinegar
well put zack
Two comments
by Quinten
Monday, Mar. 24, 2003 at 8:20 PM
1) Militant tactics
As someone who has dabbled in economics, the use of militant tactics that put you at risk of being arrested is a personal choice, but in economic terms is a <i>costly signal</i>. This does demonstrate to people watching that your beliefs are very strongly felt. The balance is making sure that it doesn't come across as an action that is uncontrolled or spurred by adrenaline, not careful consideration of the risk.
2) Diversity of protestors
We have a VERY diverse group of protestors in Pittsburgh. I think it's great that we have anarchists marching besides parents who bring their young children. Take a better look at the photos on this website, and you will see that people of all ages and appearances are part of the peace movement in Pittsburgh. And I think even corporate media photos of the events show that side.
what is the complaint?
by idiots
Monday, Mar. 24, 2003 at 11:38 PM
So let me get this straight. There are permitted events every week against the war. You presumedly attend these, but also decide to attend an un-permitted march against the war. By attending this march you choose to leave the permitted event on the sidewalk around the federal building. This un-permitted march allows people to use a variety of tactics. You join in, but choose not to utilize some tactics that others do. You then complain that others are utilizing tactics you don't agree with. Are you people stupid? Seriously, there is no difference between you all and the people who want to take the streets at candle light vigils. If you have a problem with the event don't participate. There are events almost every day against the war. You people for some unknown reason claim the right to decide what happens on the one that has the most militant non-violent tactics. Why are you going to an event you don't agree with? Why do you impose your will on others? What gives you the right to decide how others organize and participate? You not only lack solidarity but logic.
conforming
by jwg
Tuesday, Mar. 25, 2003 at 1:18 AM
Sorry Nick, but what Zack is talking about is wagging the dog in the other direction I wholly disagree with beliveing we have to become them to be effective. This is on par with selling out. The whole point of grassroot organisation is to present truth, not some spin that will look good for the cameras. There is too much status quo in this country. Almost all of us believe this status quo is wrong. The only thing to do is to buck it, be honest and present ourselves as we stand. Trying to look good for the cameras will make the grassroots become the evening news.
tactics
by Evan N
Tuesday, Mar. 25, 2003 at 7:18 AM
first of all, i agree with unpermitted marches and thought that it was a good idea on thrusday, but property destruction does not have to be included with unpermitted marches. The two don't go hand in hand, they can, but haven't over the course of this pittsburgh resistance for the most part. I attend events which i support, like the marches, i do not take place in property destructon, which i disagree with, but nonetheless it affects me as the police get more violent when they see that. Infact it is the other way around man, when somepeople decide that trashing property is their own descision, they are wrong. it jepardizes the whole march and ultimately affects everyone, and obviously most people at the march didnt want to do that stuff beause they didnt. when i come to an unpermitted march, i dont come so someone else can toss a newspaper box and get everyone maced
Mace
by -
Tuesday, Mar. 25, 2003 at 7:29 AM
I didn't see anyone get maced because two newspaper boxes were moved, did you? Seems like the pepper spray came out an hour or so later and was completely unrelated.
evan, flawed logic
by --
Tuesday, Mar. 25, 2003 at 11:41 AM
sorry evan but that is not very logical.
you don't get to pick and choose among the tactics you like. each event has a framework that the organizers use for the event. when you participate in an event you are making an agreement to abide by the framework of the event. the same way people shouldn't complain if an event is advertised as permitted with peacekeepers and it turns out to be that way. there is no difference between what you are saying and others saying that they walked on the sidewalk alongside the march on thursday and were arrested and peppersprayed because of jerks like you who walked in the street. YOU put the entire group at risk by using that tactic. See how that argument goes nowhere?
and every un-permitted march so far has had at least one instance of a moved dumpster or newspaper box. to imply that those people put the march at increased risk is disingenious. as has been said before the police have flat out told people they don't care about the moved boxes or dumpsters. they have said they care about smashed windows, marches that won't disperse, and stuff like that. I think you need to cut through the crap and get to the real issue. You don't like the tactics others have used. not because the framework of the event doesn't allow it, not because the organizers have asked people not to do stuff like that, not because it's put others at increased risk, not because a lot of people don't support those tactics- utilizing a tactics and supporting it are two very different things my friend, but because YOU don't like the tactic. Guess what? It's time to grow up. Everyone in the movement uses tactics others disagree with.
responding
by zack
Tuesday, Mar. 25, 2003 at 1:01 PM
first off, let me say that i appreciate any advice or comments that people have made about my post. i would like to clarify a few things so that i don't come across as trying to bad mouth certain individuals.
i am not trying to make an argument that certain people at protests are somehow ignorant or unproductive. and futhermore, my comments were not intended to be personal assaults against individuals who use tactics i disagree with. many of the people who i am addressing are my friends--people that i play music with, go to school with, did food not bombs cooking with, etc.. because i respect these people, and share a similar worldview, i feel it's my responsibility to speak out about tactics that bother me. this isn't about my personal problems with people, it is about considering different aspects of strategy.
some people have responded to my comments by suggesting that if i don't agree with the sort of protest taking place, then i shouldn't attend. this is an incredibly shortsighted argument and not only does it attempt to exclude people who are against the war, it relieves people from having to seriously reflect on their strategy in an honest and critical manner. if i touched a sore spot with people on this issue, then maybe that's a good thing. let me state a few things on this point:
-i am not in favor of telling people how to dress, or how to act at a protest. i have tattoos and facial piercings and i would not appreciate anyone telling me to change my appearance in order to appease other people in the public. BUT, what i DO recognize is that whether i accept it or not, my appearance does give people a certain image of me, in the same way that a white guy in a 3 piece suit gives punks a particular impression. i am not arguing that protests should appeal to the lowest common demominator and kiss everyone's ass in order to persuade them that war is wrong. but i recognize the fact that i also have a hell of a lot more information about the scenario than other people, and i have formed my opinions accordingly.
i look at the protests as a way to publicly voice our dissent, and also to try and engage other people in the public with our message--in hopes of creating more dialogue about the problems. i understand that my perspective on this issue differs from other people, and that's fine. if people want to use the protest as a way to weed out those who are uncommitted, or don't agree to the tactics that the minority set in motion, then that's fine. but whether some of these individuals like it or not, there needs to be some critical reflection about the actions that people engage in. i would love to see a diversity of tactics at protests. i think a large part of why the anti-globalization protests have been successful over the last few years is that people have been creative, imaginative, and most importantly have tried to build bonds of solidarity with other members of the community.
if people want to be disruptive at protests, than that's fine with me. i am not attempting to set the standards for what is acceptable behavior. what i am pointing to is the fact that the media and the police are already not on our side, and this has been proven time and again in this country. knowing this, we should do everything possible to try and shape the event in a way that gives us favorable media coverage. for those of you who make the argument that the media is fucked and we shouldn't try to appease them, i can see your point. but it still ignores the fact that hundreds of thousands of people in this area don't understand that, and they will judge our actions accordingly. if people want to convince themselves that i am somehow sympathic to mass media, the police, or the war, then they are sorely mistaken. i am not against anyone who opposes the war. what i oppose are tactics that ignore the function of mass media, unnecessarily alienate members of the pittsburgh community, and attempt to weed out the committed from the nonbelievers. if this is a tough pill to swallow then i apologize. all i'm trying to do is offer a different perspective on the issue in hopes of creating the strongest movement possible. i sincerely apologize if i hurt anyone's feelings by commenting negatively about the use of masks, and i understand the functional reasons why people wear them. i also understand that most people in the public aren't thinking along the lines of masks being a functional piece of clothing, they are proabably thinking that those people look scary. whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant, the fact is most people think this way. are we going to alienate them? call them disbelievers? tell them their not radical enough?
there needs to be more communication taking place between the anti-war movement and other people in the public. and furthermore, there needs to be more self-reflexivity about the tactics that are being used at our protests, rather than encouraging people to stay home if they don't like it. i am happy about the fact that there are radical people in the world, and i am happy that there are radical forms of protest. but with an anti-war community as small as the one in pittsburgh, there needs to be more consideration for those who are uneducated about Iraq. we can't lump these people together and demonize them for not knowing what we know.
the flipside to this argument is that we need to be more radical, more revolutionary. i agree with this position entirely, but lets not pretend that causing disruptions at a public protest are acts of a revolutionary. REVOLUTION is a serious word to throw around, and it implies something far deeper and profound than utilizing public protest. it implies regime change, or a fundamental change in our socioeconomic condition, ie. the overthrow of capitalism. for those of you who are down for that project, i admire you. however, for those of use who are hoping to make radical changes in society without the ultimate goal of revolution, then we do need to focus on how to improve our strategies.
all of my comments have been made with the best of intentions and people shouldn't take personal offense to their outfits or image being criticized.
i appreciate all the comments that people have made and i have learned a great deal from reading them.
take it easy,
zack
zack
by joe
Tuesday, Mar. 25, 2003 at 1:15 PM
have you considered the fact that maybe people have taken these arguments into consideration before planning actions? this shit gets discussed all the time in groups. everyone I know is aware of the negative consequences of disruption. everyone is aware of the possability of turning people off by wearing masks. this whole argument is ridiculous. again, no one is asking people to stay home. what is being said is that if you don't support disruption then don't participate in an event that's goal is disruption. that's the freaking point. it isn't divisive or anything like that. it's about realizing we are not ever going to all agree on what tactics should be used. you can still oppose the war, you can still have your voice heard, you can still do everything you want except determine what others do at an event that accept the tactics they want to use. what is hard to understand about this? i go to meetings every week where all we talk about it this shit. hours and hours about tactics, strategy, and more so I don't need to hear how maybe we should be discussing this stuff. DUH! it's already happening. get involved! what groups are you in? how are you helping to organize things? are you helping in the planning of things? Whether you are or not I think your opinion in just as valid but if you aren't helping organize I doubt you have an idea of how much these issues already get discussed by the organizations that plan things.
Revolution
by George K.
Tuesday, Mar. 25, 2003 at 1:15 PM
Dodgerambler@yahoo.com
You are correct, Zack, revolution is a heavy word to throw around. None of these lightweights on these boards are prepared to think through a revolution. None of you people could engineer a revolution, let alone build the post-revolution society. Hell, you people can't even lead an effective march!
Effective social movements depend on getting your messages out to the public in a way that makes people think and incites them to action on YOUR behalf. No matter what you have to do, even if you consider it "selling-out" to achieve your goal, you have to do it to win the majority of the people to your position to effect a change and make it work. If you cannot do this effectively, then the society will turn on you and destroy you, no matter how noble your cause. The current laws can only protect you for so long, because laws, after a while, can be changed.
So, take your message to the people in a way that they can see themselves following. Instill 'reasonable doubt" in the status quo.
stuff
by Evan N
Tuesday, Mar. 25, 2003 at 6:32 PM
First of all, to the ordinary person watching the news, it was conveyed that the police retaliated to 1) refusing to disperse and 2) property destruction when they got violent. the media spent more time tlaking about "property destruction" than they did our message, and whether property was destroyed or moved the media still interprets that the same way. And also, the only reason that my marching in the street was putting sidewalk people in danger is because the police chose to. Originally the police said "its okay to march on the sidewalk" and so those people would be immune to the arrests etc. that street marches would have to deal with, but until the POLICe decided to violate that agreement they were safe, it wasnt my fault they were in jepordy in the end, it was the polices who broke the trust and agreement that makes sidewalk marching safe in the first place! Also, when you use tactics, whether it be a candlelight vigil or mvoing newspaper boxes, it labels the entire movement in the media and in people's heads whether you like it or not, so why give the media more ammunition to use against us?
evan, worst argument ever.
by James
Wednesday, Mar. 26, 2003 at 12:10 AM
"the only reason that my marching in the street was putting sidewalk people in danger is because the police chose to. Originally the police said "its okay to march on the sidewalk" and so those people would be immune to the arrests etc. that street marches would have to deal with, but until the POLICe decided to violate that agreement they were safe, it wasnt my fault they were in jepordy in the end, it was the polices who broke the trust and agreement that makes sidewalk marching safe in the first place!"
Evan, how exactly is this different then the police saying they didn't care about newspaper boxes being thrown in the streets? I can't believe you just tried to justify your argument with a police said... The fact remains that your initial argument claimed that people putting newspaper boxes in the street impacted others safety.
Perhaps you should retract that?
boxes
by evan n
Wednesday, Mar. 26, 2003 at 7:13 AM
i justified my point with a "police said" because they broke the agreement about marchers on the sidewalk, so any difference between the danger sidewalk marchers and street marchers is nullified, both succeptible to the same arrests etc. now. while the police SAID that they didn't care abotu the boxes, they most likely did, because what kind of media exposure would they get? "police remained docile after marchers took to the streets and trashed newspaper boxes" they SAID they didnt care abotu the boxes like they SAID sidewalk marchers would be safe. if youre going to criticize my argument for using a police said..., it applies to yours just as well.
to sum it all up: putting newspaper boxes in the street is dumb
--
by --
Wednesday, Mar. 26, 2003 at 11:41 AM
fine, and many think walking in the street without a permit is dumb. wow. where does that leave us? perhaps with not agreeing, but still respecting the fact others will use varying tactics. Oh wait, that leaves us with diversity of tactics.
JUST ANSWER THIS ONE QUESTION ...
by S. Ansabelt
Wednesday, Mar. 26, 2003 at 2:15 PM
sodamninsane@killer.com
Here is the fundamental problem with the current peace movement in AMerica. Not that it is unpatriotic ... but that it is just illinformed and ignorant.
http://archives.warroom.com/peace-protester.mp3
Can Anyone Answer the Question?
Right back at you
by Jonas
Wednesday, Mar. 26, 2003 at 4:56 PM
How will taking over Iraqi promote peace and justice in the world?
If you think we can just roll in there hold a few elections and all will be well in the world, think again.
If the Iraq is supposedly happy to see us why do we have American mechanics as POWs in Bahgdad? The Iraqi people are making it obvious that they do not want us there.
Look out folks this is gonna get much worse. These people are threatened by a forgien power and will fight to defend their families, regardless if their leader is Saddam or Elvis.
I'm scared. Now I have a brother a shipping out in a month. He is a REMF but so are the latest POWs. Is he going to get hit by an Iraqi guerilla force will we are busy fighting house to house in Iraq.
I think most people were for this war because of the results of the original Gulf War. We bomb the crap out of them, they pull back and surrender, end of story. Now that we are coming into their country, we are going to be fighting a much different force this time around, and body count is going to be ugly, as current news is starting to show. God this is ugly.
thoughts on peace riots
by all American boy
Friday, Mar. 28, 2003 at 7:11 AM
Well, well, well, well. latest reports say that al-Qaida is using the war protests to surveill and evaluate security in cities where the peace riots are taking place. good company you people are keeping, any and all of Americas enemies.
wow
by Evan N
Friday, Mar. 28, 2003 at 7:20 AM
Oh so the solution to that problen that probably doesnt even exist because it is straight propaganda trying to quiet dissent is to STOP PROTESTING? what a service THAT does to democracy. and even if al qaeda is doing that shit, no one is conspiring with them. its a PEACE rally (not riot, look the two up) and al quada doesnt stand for peace.
the only thing you did in that post was make yourself look like an ignorant fool. you probably heard that shit from rush limbaugh or something.
Quote
by Theo
Friday, Mar. 28, 2003 at 9:23 AM
TheoK444@aol.com
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president is not only unpatriotic and servile, but morally treasonable." - Teddy Roosevelt, said during WWI
Quote
by Theo
Friday, Mar. 28, 2003 at 9:32 AM
TheoK444@aol.com
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable." - Teddy Roosevelt, during WWI
Cany You People Actually Stomach the TRUTH?
by George K.
Friday, Mar. 28, 2003 at 10:58 AM
dodgerambler@yahoo.com
Why We Must Fight � and Now!
Wednesday, March 19, 2003
By William J. Bennett
Three weekends ago, millions of demonstrators across the globe protested on behalf of "human rights." Their marches, slogans, placards and speeches did not declaim against Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, did not cite the human rights reports detailing his tyranny and torture, did not take account the plaints of Iraqis fortunate enough to live in exile.
Rather, they protested the U.S. and the U.K. and their efforts to topple Saddam and liberate Iraq. Now, we are seeing more television advertisements along these lines, and even a "virtual march on Washington."
Just after the celebration of Abraham Lincoln�s birthday, it is appropriate to remember his lament: "The world has never had a good definition of the word �liberty.�" With Saddam flouting international law, and President Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair attempting to enforce it, portrayals of Bush as Adolf Hitler � as we saw and heard in the "human rights" protests � betray an ignorance of liberty, an ignorance of right and wrong, an ignorance of commonsense. Because Bush and Blair are putting together a coalition of countries to oust Saddam, they are labeled the warmongers and tyrants. We live in a confusing time indeed.
Lincoln described liberty by a useful analogy: "The shepherd drives the wolf from the sheep's throat, for which the sheep thanks the shepherd as a liberator, while the wolf denounces him for the same act as the destroyer of liberty." Lincoln made it clear who the sheep was and who the wolf was. It is equally important to recognize who the liberator is.
Those who march against the U.S. and the U.K. today, those who condemn Bush and Blair and remain silent when it comes to Saddam, are in league with the wolf�s view that the shepherds are destroying liberty. The people of Iraq will soon know what Afghanis know. The true wolf was devouring Afghanis, the true shepherd saved them.
It is worth remembering what those in the former Soviet republics know and what the anti-American Western street has forgotten: It was, and is, U.S. and British resolve that truly liberates the oppressed and that defends the lives and liberties of the free against the appetites and ill-will of the world�s dictators.
In 1998 then-President Bill Clinton stated: "What if he [Saddam] fails to comply [with disarmament] and we fail to act? He will conclude that the international community has lost its will. He will then go right on building up his arsenal. Someday, someway, I guarantee you, he'll use that arsenal." Last year, former Vice President Al Gore stated, "[W]e know that he [Saddam] has stored away secret supplies of biological weapons and chemical weapons throughout his country."
It is not President Bush who woke up one day to discover that Saddam was making and harvesting weapons of mass destruction. Yet it is Bush who is blamed for doing something about it. Saddam may be mad, but he is not a scientist. He does not collect chemical and biological weapons for mere pleasure and intrigue. Just ask the survivors of Halabja. So when Saddam acts, it will be Bush and America who are blamed for inaction, for appeasement. We will be liable for such blame because we are the only ones who can do something about it.
We are not at war with Muslims or Arabs around the world; we are at war with some Muslim and Arab leaders who misinterpret their religion and put a primacy on war over peace and slavery over freedom. But among the leadership in the world�s moral democracies there is no misinterpretation, and nowhere is that more true than in the case of the U.S.
This is not a new role for us, but is a unique role we proudly inherit as the world�s liberator. As Wolf Blitzer pointed out: "Over the past two decades, almost every time U.S. military forces have been called into action to risk their lives and limbs, it's been on behalf of Muslims. ... [T]o assist the Afghan mujahadin � during the Soviet invasion in the 1980s, to liberate Kuwait following the Iraqi invasion of 1990, to help Somali Muslims suffering at the hands of a warlord in Mogadishu, to help Muslims first in Bosnia and then in Kosovo who faced a Serb onslaught, and more recently to liberate Afghanistan from its Taliban and Al Qaeda rulers."
Those who protest against the U.S. just now are legatees of those who protested against the U.S. in the 1980s, when we fought the focus of evil then, the Soviet Union. But ask a former Soviet, or East Berliner, if he is better off now than he was, say, 15 years ago. Ask a Nicaraguan. Ask a Bosnian Muslim. U.S. resolve can be thanked for all that, even as those who protested our defense and military postures marched in favor of appeasement.
Indeed, we live in a strange time when the anti-nuclear movement and its leaders of yesterday can today suggest a course of inaction such that Saddam will be able to join North Korea in becoming a nuclear power. The only logical conclusion one can reach is that for the protesters today, weapons in the hands of the U.S. are to be met with outrage while weapons in the hands of Saddam are to be met with silence.
We seek to liberate Iraq today, not only because for Saddam "[t]orture is not a method of last resort in Iraq, it is often the method of first resort," according to Kenneth Pollack, President Clinton�s director of Gulf Affairs at the NSC. We seek to liberate Iraq because after Sept. 11, 2001, we were put on notice. We were put on notice that civilized people can no longer live in a bubble and hope for the best. We were put on notice that there are fanatics and tyrants who want nothing from us but our death. And this notice requires action: the action of the brave, the action of the unthanked, the action of the free.
In Iraq as in other contemporary situations, the responsibility to act has been ours because the ability has been ours. The responsibility has been ours because oppressed people look to us for their deliverance. There is a duty in being the nation that Abraham Lincoln, speaking of our Declaration of Independence, called "a rebuke and a stumbling-block to the very harbingers of re-appearing tyranny and oppression." That is who we happen to be. And it is an honor.
Bennett
by Theo
Friday, Mar. 28, 2003 at 11:31 AM
TheoK444@aol.com
It is wrong to assume tht just because demonstrators aren't carrying signs denouncing Sadaam that they support his government. Every demonstrator i've talked to agrees that he is a murderous tyrant. That said, there are plenty of other murderous tyrants in the world today who are oppressing, starving, torturing, etc. their people, who have wmd or are trying to get them, who support terrorism, and who actively hate the United States. Yet, for some strange reason, we are not at war with these nations. North Korea announces that they are resuming a nuclear weapons program, threatens U.S. spy planes in the region, let it be known that they have missles that may be capable of reaching the West Coast, and actually threaten the U.S. with war if we impose sanctions on them. Yet Bush doesn't seem to consider this a threat worth going to war over. Iran has recently been discovered to be working on a nuclear weapons program, in violation of international law. The fundamentalist regime has been active in supporting terrorism around the world, especially in Palestine. Yet Bush doesn't seem to think this is a threat worth going to war over. Need i mention Syria? Or our 'ally', Saudi Arabia? I'm still holding my breath waiting for Bush to even so much as criticize the Saudi regime for allowing the hateful anti-American propeganda that is a daily occurrence in their media, or attempt to stop the flow of oil money into terrorist hands. And what about China? Don't give me this Sadaam is such an evil man argument, because the world is full of evil men killing their own people, and we're doing nothing about it.
THE ANTI_WAR MOVEMETN IS RACIST AND ANTI)AMERICAN
by K. Kong
Friday, Mar. 28, 2003 at 12:32 PM
http://www.protestwarrior.com/images/protest_gallery/them/pages/0009.htm
The above link is to a picture of a flier advertising a San Francisco "peace gathering." It shows a photo of a gorilla next to one of Secretary of State Colin Powell, who apparently is supposed to look apelike. Captions above the two photos say " 'You have (food) . . . I take,' " and " 'You have (oil) . . . we take.' " Below the photos, another caption reads "Evolution? . . . Or time for another revolution?" THis is what the Anti-War movement considers "patriotic" or otherwise acceptable tactics, using such blatantly hateful adn racist materials. THis is absolutely truly offensive and disgusting !! BUt that is the pervasive attitude of the Anti-War Pro Saddam Movement in America.
it's not racist.
by jwg
Friday, Mar. 28, 2003 at 12:53 PM
the sign was just explaining that capitalists are not that evolved from apes.
Daddy's money?
by Theo
Friday, Mar. 28, 2003 at 3:40 PM
TheoK444@aol.com
I am 34 years old, have a good job, and own my own home. I haven't gotten a penny from my dad since i moved out at 18. I am clean cut, and have taken a shower today. I shovel my walk when it snows, cut my grass in the summer, and am a generally nice guy. I could even be one of your neighbors, aab. Perhaps if you weren't so caught up in this black and white world of long haired hippie protestors vs. 'good americans' you wouldn't make such asinine generalizations like that. That said, i can't believe i just wasted my time even writing this, you are obviously only interested in venting your anger at the easiest target. Have an argument, i will respond. Rant, rage, and insult people, i will from this point on ignore you.
ZACK'S comments
by Conservative Guy
Friday, Mar. 28, 2003 at 4:45 PM
I'd just like to thank Zack for being a thoughful and intelligent anti-war protestor... i support the war and the administration's decision... i think it's the right thing to do in the long run... but i totally agree with zack's 2 main points in his post... i have no problem with peace rallies and peaceful events.... the thing that annoys me is the radicalism of at least some of the protestors and the over-the-edge things you do at your rallies... none of them help your cause ONE BIT... unless they encourage other radicals to come and join in... but i think you'd much rather try convincing those on the fence to come join in your events and points of view...
i'm rambling... the end... just think about what you're doing and the consequences for your cause before you act... cause it seems like many of you don't...
no we do
by jwg
Friday, Mar. 28, 2003 at 4:52 PM
we are fully aware of the consequences. It's only when the consequences are unfounded (like beating and arresting disbursing marchers) that they are a surprise.
Bush is the one who should think about the consequences. Every act of agression committed by the US government in the middle east creates 100's of more terrorists. If there is ever anther terrorist attack against american civilians, their blood will stain Mr. Bush's soul.
hidden comments
by pgh imc editorial
Saturday, Mar. 29, 2003 at 10:14 AM
Please refrain from making comments unrelated to the initial post. Name calling/insults/threats will not be tolerated.
pgh IMC editorial collective.
nice article
by Conservative Guy
Saturday, Mar. 29, 2003 at 4:09 PM
bennett
by bennett's bud
Saturday, Mar. 29, 2003 at 4:23 PM
theo: and if we did engage the other tyrannical regimes that threaten us, what would you say then? you would no doubt take to the streets again, screaming and whining. maybe when north korea sends you a 10 megaton greeting card, you'll finally wake up. you're contradicting yourself. but, thats par for the course for most in YOUR movement.
hah
by Evan N
Saturday, Mar. 29, 2003 at 5:04 PM
Obviously George K has ran out of stupid things to say and now takes them from other peopel and copy pastes them, but anyway
i agree with the person above who said something like we should be spending our time trying to attract fence sitters.
can you people stomach the truth
by Red Predator
Saturday, Mar. 29, 2003 at 9:29 PM
THE LIST: Ever vigilant, we at Liberty 1 exercise our free speech rights to publicly hold accountable the appeasers, apologists, fellow travelers, and others in the "Hate America" crowd who are actively undermining America's fight against international terrorism. The List contains the identities of these people in academia, arts, entertainment, media, government, politics, clergy, and community organizations...and exactly why they are on The List. Americans who embrace the "Hate America" crowd have First Amendment Rights to express their dissent. Liberty 1 staunchly defends their right to express their views--regardless however much we disagree with them. Those of us on the other side also hold First Amendment Rights, and we exercise our free speech rights to hold these America Haters accountable for their public conduct. Through detailed research and irrefutable documentation, the Liberty 1 Project seeks to expose the "Hate America" crowd. Please go to
can you people stomach the truth
by RP
Saturday, Mar. 29, 2003 at 9:38 PM
sitemaster, why did you drop the web address for Liberty 1 in my last comment? trying to stifle free speech? let's try it again. www.liberty1.com
can you people stomach the truth
by RP
Saturday, Mar. 29, 2003 at 9:45 PM
sitemaster, why did you drop the web address for Liberty 1 in my last comment? trying to stifle free speech? let's try it again. www.liberty1.com
Bennett
by Theo
Sunday, Mar. 30, 2003 at 10:08 AM
TheoK444@aol.com
BB: i don't see how i'm contradicting myself, please explain that to me. You avoided the question i posed in my earlier post. What is the justification for this 'unavoidable' war against Iraq when there are others out there doing exactly what we claim we are trying to prevent Sadaam from doing? Why not war with Iran or North Korea? I'm still waiting for an answer.