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please leave small children at home
by norm b
Monday, Mar. 31, 2003 at 11:24 AM
health risks to small children at direct actions
Please don't bring small children along on direct actions.I'm all for bringing children to demonstrations-start them off right-but direct actions especially dangerous for them. Here's why:
Look at your little finger.The human airway is roughly
proportional to the little finger.Now look at your child's little finger.Thats the size of their airway.Further,children's airways can close up do to very slight irritation.One of the most dificult skills for an emt is establishing an airway in a child-because if you
fail the first time, it closses tight and you don't get a second chance.
We can expect more suprise chemical attacks by the police.Its time to limit childrent to the rally point or leave them home.
A suggestion
by Andy Horbal
Monday, Mar. 31, 2003 at 11:38 AM
arh6@pitt.edu Oakland
At anything that could be considered a "big action" (anticipated turn-out of 500+?) organizers should consider putting together some sort of day care for protesters with young children. This could also be a good way to involve activists who for whatever reason (injury, disability, high-risk) do not want to be in an action, but who do want to help.
Prosecute People Who Bring Small Children to a Protest Rally Like These
by S. Odamninsane
Monday, Mar. 31, 2003 at 11:48 AM
What kind of fools are you. FIrst you practically advertise that there will be confrontatinoal "tactics" whihc leads to the likely result of police action, and then you even consider marching wiht small children? Sounds like child endangerment to me.
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by -
Monday, Mar. 31, 2003 at 1:40 PM
you obviously didn't read correctly mr. o - nobody was expecting police violence, which is why we did bring our children, and the second person said the organizers should set something up because of the possibility of police violence, as it did today.
the comment about direct action even made a specific distinction between the 2.... demo, direct action. this wasn't a die in, it was just a march. there's big trouble when violent cops and their brainless supporters (apparently like yourself) make it so my daughter cannot walk down the street in peace.
leave our families alone!
inappropriate police action
by deadrockstar
Monday, Mar. 31, 2003 at 1:41 PM
There was no reason for the police to react as they did on M30. In the march down Braddock, children should have been perfectly safe; if not for police violence and chemical attacks, the march would have dispersed peacefully. It was the police response that endangered our children, and as it has become clear there are those among our law enforcement who do not respect the lives and safety of our young people, I would leave the little ones at home. This is with regret: these children are as opposed to war as anyone and it is their right to join their parents in speaking out (make the argument that a child cannot truly understand the horror of war, and it's certain that you youself don't comprehend it). But if the police will attack us and our sons and daughters, we will act first to keep our children safe. And we will remember every man and woman with a badge who would spray chemical agent in the face of a child.
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by .
Monday, Mar. 31, 2003 at 1:55 PM
there's big trouble when violent cops and their brainless supporters (apparently like yourself) make it so my daughter cannot walk down the street in peace.
There's big trouble when mindless leftist bleeding hearts and their brainless supporters make it so I cannot drive down the street in peace.
leave our families alone!
Leave our streets alone! You have the right to speak, not the right to be heard! You people are just like the corporate media you claim to hate, and the fascist rightwing you despise. Close-minded and selfish.
kids and police
by name required
Monday, Mar. 31, 2003 at 2:11 PM
I appreciate the comment that started this thread because it makes a good point that many of us who are parents and have been bringing our kids are concerned about.
I'm not frightened of what the protesters will do. Not at all.
But I am very frightened of the police, some of whom clearly are letting their own personal prejudices prevail and have lost all notion of professionalism.
And how do you explain to kids that they can't go to the march because the police will be there? The same police they're supposed to trust otherwise?
Yes, we need to look at the various ways of involving our kids without putting them at risk.
Leave your streets alone? Whose streets?
by Dan
Monday, Mar. 31, 2003 at 2:57 PM
Leave your streets alone? Whose streets are they?
They're as much your streets as they are mine.
Hypothetical:
Suppose 3,000 protesters decide to get into their 3,000 cars, put a peace sign on the window, and drive around in circles [insert high traffic point of pittsburgh] at the slowest speed allowable by law. Would you prefer this? What would THIS do to traffic?
.
by .
Monday, Mar. 31, 2003 at 3:02 PM
Either way people are deliberately trying to hold up traffic in direct violation of several laws. I say mace the lot of them and charge them with felonies. It's not like these hippies are voting anyway.
TO Brainless Anonymous
by S.Odamninsane
Monday, Mar. 31, 2003 at 3:09 PM
LEt me get this straight:
1. You are pissed because you and your daughter can not walk down the street in peace? Yet it is okay for you and your cadre of activists without purpose to make it impossible for me and my kids to walk down the street, or drive down the street, or bike down the street, etc. Pretty damn elitist of you.
2. You are telling me that the people that have been posting on these pages didn't expect the conflict with the police? Well if you didnt then you are brainless, becasue there is so much BS on these pages about "diversity of tactics" and "how to deal with police confrontation" and "using the black brigade" and such other violent nonsense. Hey, keep your kid safe and just stay at home, Beter yet, maybe you shouldn't even be propgating anymore and keep the rest of us and your unborn children safe from your stupidity.
you assume
by susy zimzel
Monday, Mar. 31, 2003 at 4:30 PM
...that everyone who supports the protest movement is some sort of hippie/communist/whatever label you feel like using at any given second...which is but unfair and downright inaccurate. Why can't you stick to a reasonable discussion without pulling out all of the "scare words" used to belittle people who don't spend their days watching Fox News?
Key Words: IN PEACE
by Irritated
Monday, Mar. 31, 2003 at 4:41 PM
"You are pissed because you and your daughter can not walk down the street in peace? Yet it is okay for you and your cadre of activists without purpose to make it impossible for me and my kids to walk down the street, or drive down the street, or bike down the street, etc. Pretty damn elitist of you." -- Key words, IN PEACE. Protests may inconvenience people, and I won't claim that they don't, but no one is at risk of any personal violence from protestors, regardless of any talk of "diversity of tactics" and "how to deal with police confrontation" and "using the black brigade." "Diversity of tactics" refers to exactly that, however, I have not seen any tactics discussed online that had anything to do with violence against people. Dealing with police confrontation usually contains warnings for what to do when the POLICE become violent, tips on how to handle being pepper-sprayed and so on. None of this is "violent nonsense" as far as I am concerned. So, please stop hurling insults about stupidity and elitism and look at where the violence started: WITH THE POLICE, the people who are supposed to be protecting us. People should feel comfortable taking children to these peace-oriented activities, but they won't anymore, rightfully, because the police that should be there to protect them are the ones being terribly overzealous with pepper-spray, putting them (the children) in harms way! I don't see how anyone can possibly defend the police's tactics in this instance.
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by .
Monday, Mar. 31, 2003 at 4:47 PM
look at where the violence started:
The guys carrying the "NO BLOOD FOR OIL" sign who refused to clear the street? The gang of peaceful thugs who felt the need to obstruct a lawful arrest?
Careful!
by Anti-label
Monday, Mar. 31, 2003 at 4:50 PM
susy zimzel - just wanted to say that i agree with you about being generally tired of being called hippie/commie/Sadam-lover etc. just because i do not support this war, but i also wanted to say that no matter how closed-minded some people may come across (no names/psudo-names to be mentioned at the moment), we also need to be careful of labeling and therefor irritating/disenchanting/button-holing etc those who do not agree with us either. yes, there are comments on here that i would like to label as stupid, corporate-news-loving, nascar-watching, redneck, etc, etc, but it's best to refrain from all labels - even quick mentions of fox news ;) - if we really wanna reach people with different views without alienating them as much as some other people are alienating us.
Question of Violence, not Law
by Irritated
Monday, Mar. 31, 2003 at 5:00 PM
May I ask what is violent about carrying a sign in the street? I never mentioned anything about not breaking laws at all, just violence. Attacking peaceful protestors walking down a street is, in my opinion, excessive use of force, whether the march was permitted or not. Personally, I will not defend the people who tried to stop and arrest, but I still feel excessive force, by police officers, was involved. There were certainly FAR more people sprayed than just those interfering with an arrest and those nearby.
Do not pay any attention to the man behind the curtain...
by Dickey
Monday, Mar. 31, 2003 at 5:05 PM
_________, it seems like you know it all. By refusing to even personalize your statements with even a nickname, you lack credibility. Most people involved in this effort loathe violence, period. As for "hippies" and "thugs" as you have stated [while drooping to the lowly level of namecalling without even having one yourself], I would be willing to wager that the ones involved in these protests do vote, and vote more often and with more information than you.
The streets belong to the people, whether they want to hold pro-war or anti-war protests. Funny how we dont see as large of a police presence at the pro-war rallies [and these are the people advocating violence!].
peace, love
the arrest
by -
Monday, Mar. 31, 2003 at 5:08 PM
Just a guess, but I'd say many of us would feel a similar moral responsibility to help someone being arrested for NO REASON! The individual arrested did nothing wrong. He had complied with orders to move to the sidewalk. He simply told people to watch out for the giant cop shaking big canisters of pepper spray. The cop pointed at him and said I want that one. The cop then violently attacked those on the sidewalk in order to arrest that individual.
Daycare?
by Sam
Monday, Mar. 31, 2003 at 5:09 PM
Daycare is an excellent idea.
-
by -
Monday, Mar. 31, 2003 at 5:15 PM
the right wing is so pro-death and anti-family it's shocking. you would LOVE it in iraq, please leave america to the americans who enjoy civil liberties.
and you obviously misinterpretted the question posed and are quite uninformed about traffic law. all we keep hearing is 'several violations'... name one. driving in a car at the minimum speed requirement is neither one nor 'several violations'. your law is as poor as the swissvale PDs
leave the talking to the grown ups, and leave the parenting to the parents. my daughter can and will continue to march in protest when she wants it, and if any perverts like you or the swissvale PeDophiles get near her, i have no qualms with defending HER freedoms from EVIL tyrants like you.
re: kids and police
by contrarycrow
Monday, Mar. 31, 2003 at 5:18 PM
I choose not to attend the march with my nine-year-old because of the potential of police violence but I don't condemn those who did attend with kids, obviously they thought it was important to be there. I feel a little guilty about being a 'chickenshit' but I've been to enough protests to know what can happen. It really should have been peaceful enough for small children, handicapped people, little old ladies with canes, etc. It's ridiculous that I should have to tell my budding activist daughter "No we can't go because the police might get out of hand." That is indicative of things gone really wrong, don't you think?
I don't blindly accept corporate media's take on what happened but I don't think that all who attended acted like good little peace angels either. Tensions are high on both sides. Some hotheads made it worse. I'd like to feel I could safely attend with my daughter at some point.
I agree that a protest daycare is a good idea, I would be willing to help do this because I'd feel like I was doing SOMETHING.
I think EMT training and a first aid station at the start point would be helpful. Anger management might be a good thing too. What about at least 1 in 10 people having cameras and tape recorders? Text accounts are one thing. Pictures, video, and sound are harder to dismiss!
Childish?
by Irritated
Monday, Mar. 31, 2003 at 5:24 PM
S. Odamninsane - so now anyone who disagrees with you is childish? Or just anyone who protests? You do realize, don't you, that protesting things you disagree with is a basic foundation of our country? We were formed by men who stood up to their government and basically said, hey, we think this is wrong. Look at the last half-century of our history! The civil rights movement, for goodness sake! What makes this so different, wrong, and childish? We are people who disagree with something the government is doing. We are going to stand up and protest it. End of story.
Keep small children safe
by John Lacny
Monday, Mar. 31, 2003 at 5:24 PM
Norm has a good point. While I wasn't in town at this weekend's demonstration, it definitely seems that it was supposed to be a conventional rally and march, with minimal or no direct action, and therefore it's understandable if parents assumed that their kids would be OK.
Nevertheless, it appears that the police are going to be cracking down more systematically, with or without a pretext, so it may be advisable for people not to bring their kids on marches at all from now on.
This decision should of course be up to the parents, and there's no doubt that the presence of parents with children helps all of us get our message out. But I think that if I had especially small children (say, under 5), I would think twice before bringing them, given the increasingly violent behavior of the repressive organs of the state.
Keep children safe at home and abroad, I guess.
take this elsewhere...
by rebecca
Monday, Mar. 31, 2003 at 5:25 PM
malekincat@earthlink.net
...we will come up with a solution to protect the kids and I would love to talk to other parents about how to do this. I think there might already be something in the works. But let's find a way to talk about it among ourselves - it's kind of annoying having to wade your way through the insults here. But then I'd feel cornered accusing people of placing their kids at risk in Pittsburgh if I was aggressively supporting violence against children in Baghdad. Leave 'em to talk - it's just an energy drainer and it's not getting anyone anywhere to argue.
To S. Odamninsane and anonymouse
by contrarycrow
Monday, Mar. 31, 2003 at 5:33 PM
Even though I feel there's not much of a choice these days: I VOTE!!! I was taught by my grandmother, a classy old dame who loved Eleanor Roosevelt, that voting is our duty as Americans and she would come back from the grave and kick my ass if I didn't. I only wish sometimes I could vote "None of the Above" so there would have to be another election with better candidates as there is in other countries...
KIDS AND POLICE
by S.Odamninsane
Monday, Mar. 31, 2003 at 5:35 PM
I got to tellyou that this is the biggest bunch of whiner protesters I have ever seen. Ever page is nothing but "Oh the Big Cop was really mean" or "It is the cops who are always violent, not us peace loving peace activists". Cut it out. There are enough of you that go looking for the thrill of a police confrontation that it is goign to occur and blow it for the others who actually sound like they want to march in supprot of something they beleive in (no matter how worng headed it may be).
And then when the police open up a little CO on your butt (CO .. that is Pro-war lingo for "Civil Obedience") you get you shorts in a knot about how the fuzz didn't help you intot he paddy wagon, or how they twisted your arm, or caused you to lose your Che Guavara wrist watch , or otherwise hurt your feelings. What a bunch of whiners. You need to see the day when police brutality is all you keep making it out to be .. Like Chicago 1968. I was there and there was enough brutality to make me think agian about some of hte tactics that you are all nostalgic for. THere were peopel just minding their own business siting out in the park, when some of hte more radical nut cases of hte movement went out for hte purpsoe of taunting Daly's cops. And then the Big COp came in a swinging his BIg Stick. You almost wished that you got arrested becasue then you were at least safe from the beating and mayhem. What I learned was that if you want to get your message across you can't do it when someone is whoppin on your ass (even if you think your frend is being arrested unjustly - go to the sttion and bail him out, at least then one of you will be able to walk).
Guess what .... nothing aobut the pittsburgh/swissvale situations rises to that level or even hints of it. You are all misguided in this regard. And your total lack of organization and leadership is disgraceful to any good movement. You got so many screaming voices that you can not hear any of them. And the bad will always drown out the good.
BTW: I still think htat daycare for the protesters is the best way to go.
actually
by Evan N
Monday, Mar. 31, 2003 at 5:40 PM
I think bringing little kids is great - because it will discourage police using their pepper spray and shit because think of the horrible publicity they would get like "police mace toddler today in pittsburgh" I'm not taking about using kids as a shield hahah dont get me wrong, but imagine if the protest was a bunch of little kids and 90 year old ladies marching throughout it, at least the arrests would be targeted at the individuals causing problems and prepper spray woul;dn't be used indiscriminantly. that is another way in how diversity helps us out.
Quick notes...
by Anti-label
Monday, Mar. 31, 2003 at 5:42 PM
contrarycrow - nice point with the "none of the above" voting option, a wish i've had more than once. also, worth pointing out once again that many of the people protesting this war do not fit into the punk/hippie/nonvoting-kid-protestor stereotype that is currently floating around.
i'd also like to say that i think the daycare idea is a great one, and would be happy stay behind and help keep an eye on the kids at any activity i make it to, as i personally cannot currently risk arrest due to job/career situation.
To Antilabel re: daycare
by contrarycrow
Monday, Mar. 31, 2003 at 6:37 PM
contrarycrow@yahoo.com
I'm taking Rebecca's suggestion to take this elsewhere so... Anyone interested in a serious discussion to organize childcare for future events. please feel free to contact me and I'm assuming it's okay to contact Rebecca as well. I'm definitely into creating a kid safe zone at the reconvergence.
To Evan: Do you have children or really know any small children? Seeing them pepper sprayed, gasping for breath would not be worth it to get on the news in my opinion.
Slainte, over and out...
well i suppose
by Evan N
Monday, Mar. 31, 2003 at 7:37 PM
well if it crossed the line wher the police were spraying the kid that would just be sick, but it probably would defer any police brutality in the crowd - but now come to think of it it really isnt worth the risk to have children there. my bad
cops won't be deterred
by John Lacny
Monday, Mar. 31, 2003 at 11:45 PM
We should never trust that the presence of children or otherwise vulnerable people will deter the cops. Many of them, in addition to their objective role as agents of the state's repressive apparatus, are outright sadists, period. And if you think Pittsburgh itself is bad, things can get even worse once you leave the city limits (can you say not only "Swissvale" but BRENTWOOD?). By the time you get to Fayette County, they are shooting unarmed 12-year-olds in the back.
None of the Above
by Green
Tuesday, Apr. 01, 2003 at 2:12 AM
Considering that there are voters present in the movement, and that several of these voters would like a "None of the above" selection, it behooves me to mention that one of the Green Party's major platform points is election re-formating.
There are several local campaigns underway which advocate Instant Run-off voting, a system of voting in which candidates are ranked in order, and there is a none-of the above selection. The winner of such an election must win with a clear majority (>50%), which may be obtained by successive rounds of elimination (done instantly since they were all ranked).
The Green party candidate for US Congress in the 3rd District, just a little north of Pitt, AnnDrea Benson, received 23% of the vote against a 4-term incumbent last Nov.
Please support your local Green Party! It is the only growing political party in the US.
Losing site of the intent
by MoM's TLC
Tuesday, Apr. 01, 2003 at 7:45 AM
Throughout History our nation has gone to war. With each war, there have been protests and marches againt the wars. History tells us that it is very likely that many of these protests will become violent. As much as we feel our children have a right to protest, we as parents must protect our greatest assest.... our children. If history is right, why then would we even want to place our children in a scenario that has the ptential to become violent and hurtful for our children when our children have other avenues to express their feelings? Does your child have a school project where they get to pick the topic? Let them discuss their feelings in a safe environment, that way they can feel they have a voice without the fear of being physically hurt. Let them post something online, this also gives them a safe avenue to protest or support what they feel strongly about.
Yes, we should be able to take our children to a peaceful march, let them have a voice and let them experience what they want to, BUT...
We are forgetting something here. No one person has complete control of any given circumstance or another person's actions. Althought we might say to ourselves, "This is supposed to be a peaceful march", we are forgetting that someone else might use this march for his or her own less peaceful means. People get angry or Mr. "X" might show up drunk and cause disorder. Someone else with truly strong feelings or a mental disorder might just decide to plow down a whole bunch of protestors with his car. Who Really Knows?
Some of you on this subject have lost site of what is truly important here and have degraded yourself with name calling. This is the first step to losing the war. Pitt American against American in a lesser battle, seperating us in to diferent groups and divide us.
Is this what you want to teach your children?
I thought this war was about keeping America a safe place to live and raise our children.
Isn't that what it is all about anyway?
The future of OUR nation?
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