community-based, non-corporate, participatory media
Was the "convergence" a sucess.
by Smoky the bear
Monday, Apr. 28, 2003 at 6:40 PM
Hoping for some discussion about how effective the weekends convergence was.
Curious what other people think about the weekends convergence.
My own initial feelings are it was a giant failure, but I'm open to others convincing me otherwise. It's pretty disturbing to me that there hasn't been any discussion about what seems like a huge failure and waste of resources. Why is it there is only self analysis when the cops attack?
To focus only on the negatives.
Numbers- all accounts I've seen seem to say between 300-700 people. The organizing for this event took over 2 months of almost exclusive work by the Anti-war committee. This was billed as a regional convergence which seemed a giant mistake given there was little to no "regional" participation.
Media coverage- The Post Gazette had almost no coverage what so ever. I saw one picture near the back of the paper. All other print coverage I say was sparse and listed 500 people at most.
Guidlines and direct action- There was no diversity at this event. Is this the type of event those opposing the diversity of tactics framework are looking for? I'm all for people taking part in events they are comfortable with, but people need some reason to come to things. There wasn't one single instance of direct action over the weekend. There were no drums, no blocs, no puppets, no convergence center, almost no workshops, and the list goes on.
Program- The speakers were bland and uninspired.
Each seemed to be fiting a specific demographic. We've had enough pep rallies. What is the point of coming out? Where are we going as a movement? What's next? Does anyone have ideas (not just rhetoric) for how we can move forward and create real opposition.
March and energy- The chants were all the usual. How many times are we going to say this is what democracy looks like at a permitted demonstration?
if you spell it SUCKcess
by cockrocket
Monday, Apr. 28, 2003 at 7:24 PM
I disagree that there was no diversity, but definitely agree there wasn't nearly enough. I thought the carnival of greed was a good idea, but lacked the organization to make it happen well.
For what you say was months of organizing, I found the websites to be very inadequate, lacking info on the routes of the feeder marches, legal contact info, and street medics for the march.
The speakers definitely were bland, most seemed to be pushing their own agenda. Is this a failure on the organizers part for not inviting better speakers or the community's part for not producing them? why was there not better media coverage? I saw many cameras there, but if those that run the papers will only print what they want to or what demands their attention. I'd say that that's an argument for more direct action.
As far as chants go, I couldn't keep myself from screaming "this is what hipocrisy looks like!" and, "I wish I knew what democracy looked like!" but if you or I wanted a more fitting or better chant we should have started one.
No, I don't think the march or rally was a success, but I do think that I am as much to blame as anyone else who did or didn't attend. If I wanted more of the things that I believe should be happening within the anti-war movement to happen, I should have made them happen.
P.S. Did anyone at least meet new people/network with other groups? The only thing that I felt good about my entire trip to Pitt was meeting the Food Not Bombs kids and dumpster scoring some veggies.
My Evaluation
by Someone
Tuesday, Apr. 29, 2003 at 9:22 AM
The good: No one got arrested. There were lots of legal observers. There was good music at the beginning of my feeder march (South Side). I found the Web sites to be adequate. A few of the speakers were good. The carnival was a good idea. Food Not Bombs did a great job, as usual.
The bad: No real diversity of tactics. No real diversity of people (overwhelmingly white). Too many speakers, many of them very bad. Our message wasn't clear (the war is over in most people's eyes -- people seemed not to know *why* we were protesting). Bad chants and slogans. No energy. No broader regional involvement.
Overall: to be brutally honest, this is the worst action I've ever attended. Worse than ANSWER events, and that's saying something. I have no doubt that the AWC meant well and put a lot of work into this weekend. But without the substantial involvement of the broader Merton Center and POG, it was a flop. And the broader TMC and POG have good reason for not wanting to get substantially involved, I think; but that's another post.
Suggestions for the future: get new chants and slogans. Better speakers. Do more outreach, part. in less affluent communities and non-white communities. Change the focus from stopping the war to end the occupation, establishing self-determination for Iraq, lifting the sanctions, prosecuting Bush as a war criminal, etc. Begin to focus on the "war on terrorism" more generally. Focus on preventing conflict from expanding to Syria, Iran, etc. Establish different "zones" for different levels of action. Put lots of planning into direct action and CD. Keep the legal observers. Get some medics. Get people to serve as scouts, keeping track of cops and pointing out undercover officers (they could communicate via cell phone or walkie-talkie).
expectatons too high
by ...
Tuesday, Apr. 29, 2003 at 10:20 AM
I think peoples' expectations were too high. The organizers only do the logistics. The people make up the march. There are a lot of demoralized, fed up people right now. Personally, I had to force myself to attend the rally and march - it was like going to the dentist.
Before the Jan. 26 events, we would have considered Saturday's turnout excellent. but, yes, we need some new chants. And we needed the bands set up and playing much sooner.
Time for other kinds of actions for now...
New Chant
by A.B.Hoffman
Tuesday, Apr. 29, 2003 at 10:41 AM
This is one of my personal favorites and I hope we can use it often. Especially when yelling at the PO-LEESE
NUTS AND BOLTS
NUTS AND BOLTS
BOY DID WE GET SCREWED !!!
school is out
by jantz
Tuesday, Apr. 29, 2003 at 12:12 PM
i think you need to take into account the fact that the University of Pittsburgh let out for the summer during this past week and many people were already home. a significant proportion of those involved in past protests were Pitt students.
New Chant heard on the 26th...
by Dan P.
Tuesday, Apr. 29, 2003 at 12:56 PM
Money for jobs and education, not for bombs and occupation.
I like it. You could alternately do 'books and education' which would perhaps make more sense.
the war being over
by Dan
Tuesday, Apr. 29, 2003 at 3:08 PM
dprince@hawaii.edu
I think mostly the reason why there was so little attendence at this march was due to the fact that a lot of people think the war in Iraq is over. Perhaps if that point was pushed a little more we would have had a better turn out. Just an idea. Seems like the war time activists are winding down as the media informs them that the war is done and no more people will be killed.
Dan,
by Charles
Tuesday, Apr. 29, 2003 at 3:26 PM
I agree Dan, but that is only because there was almost no outreach done. We can't just expect people to know why they should turn out.
I also agree that would have been an okay number of people for one of pog's every two week marches they had in March, but this event wasn't billed that way. The AWC said this event was a regional convergence and gave people the impression it was along the lines of January. I'm sure that got some more people in attendence then usual but at what cost? I've never talked to more people who were demoralized by an event. It's a big deal when the event is so far from people's expectations.
There are obviously major problems with how this event was organized.
.
by John
Tuesday, Apr. 29, 2003 at 3:41 PM
I was up front helping with the TMC banner when it blew up, I didn't think it was that much of a "failure" really...
Yeah, new slogans, organization, events, a better banner, etc.. I don't think of it as a failure, 500 of us were on the streets speaking out for what we believe in, that's never a failure.
Market square wasn't that good of a place. It couldn't really even hold more than 500-700 people. The feeder marches were a good idea though. Next time, I'd be happy to help with one from Mt. Washington, :)
HEY!!
by etta
Tuesday, Apr. 29, 2003 at 3:45 PM
de_tritus@yahoo.com
halo!
i would be totally in a meeting where we talk about
the anti-war movement in general! smokey the
bear..do you want to meet with me and talk?
does anyone want tto meeet and talk about the
war, ;iraq, the anti war movement local and
national? im dying to get shit off my chest and
truely discuss things. i mean for one,
the anti-war movement did not stip the war.
myself, included.
if anyone wants to meet and chew the fat about this.
it would be great if people from all groups involved
showed up so we could have lots of perspectives.
what yinz think?
xo
ettar
Evaluating the re-convergence
by Someone else
Tuesday, Apr. 29, 2003 at 3:46 PM
I was not involved in the initial planning of either the convergence or the re-convergence but did actively support them once they were underway, While i share some of your views about the re-convergence's content and composition, I think the disappointing size was primarily a result of the post-"victory" malaise being felt locally and nationally by lots of people. This malaise, it seems to me, includes part de-moralization following the world-wide vote against war and Bush's complete disregard for the wishes of the world, part fear in thIs post-Saddam "kill-all-liberals-macho-triumphalism and part what good will this do the war is over. In this regard, a change of focus from "stop the war" to "end the occupation" may have offered some clarity but questionable as to whether the turnout numbers would have been substantially altered. The main theme of "stop the war-------at home and abroad" was the organizers effort to, at least ideologically, link the issues of priorities and violence at home and abroad. Having the participation of "blacks united against the war(is that the title?")was a good first step------- along with a feeder-march from the hill-----------but the peace movement has a long way to go in building working alliances with communities of color. If there were other organizational or political problems that led to a compromised unity in action for last Saturday's re-convergence then I would appreciate it if someone out there could address this. "Someone" referred to this when he/she said "without the substantial involvement of the broader Merton Center and POG it was a flop and the broader TMC and POG have good reason for not wanting to get substantially involved". Can someone explain this since it seems like a pretty loaded accusation?
Assessment
by pizzaman!
Tuesday, Apr. 29, 2003 at 4:08 PM
I agree with the following that critiques people have posted:
�This was billed as a regional convergence which seemed a giant mistake given there was little to no 'regional' participation.�
Yes, true. The staff of the TMC and POG did a great deal of this last time, and for a variety of reasons it didn�t happen this time. TMC staff had other issues to deal with, including an important fundraiser, disasters with transit, and that damn senator. POG couldn�t do outreach because of the limits set forth by the framework of the event. Most of their regional contacts will not attend an event which from the beginning discouraged tactics that risked arrest. It would have been insulting to the AWC for radicals to work really hard at outreach to groups whose tactics are not welcome at the event. This leads into�
�This did not follow the diversity of tactics framework and that people need some reason to come to things�
Absolutely true. I think there is value in doing a �safe� demonstration for liberals to participate in, and it strengthened the commitment of the 500 some liberals who did attend. In that way, this was a successful demonstration. However, for the organizers to expect radicals from the region to drive hours and hours to attend something in which their tactics are not welcome is not realistic. From the beginning the rally cry for this AWC action was: �There will be no major problems with the police, There would be no civil disobedience, and peace marshals will make sure of that� as a rally cry. Well, you organize a limited rally for a limited audience, that�s what you get. For this reason I�m personally not wild about the AWC using the following statement as a scapegoat: �Lots of people were afraid to march in the streets again given the unfair arrests and beating by the police on March 20.� �but if it allows you to sleep better at night, great.
�That the speakers were bland and seemed to be pushing their own agenda, that people seemed not to know why we were protesting.�
Uh huh. Inviting speakers to represent all the many issues tying into the war and US foreign policy is good for making sure those groups participate en mass in the event, but the end result is an unfocused 3 hour speaker lineup which confuse the media as well as participants.
I hope the AWC learns from this experience. At the same time, everyone should remember that its not possible to do an event which makes absolutely everyone happy, and I am sure that the organizers put an incredible amount of time into getting this together. I think highly of anyone who puts hundreds of activist hours into creating a demonstration that opposes the same enemies black/white/radical/liberal all share: Bush and his right-wing cronies. I do not think highly of sitting back in a computer chair and pretending I could have done a better job if I didn�t try to help myself. In conclusion, I hope all organizers throughout the region take something positive from this event as a whole, look to a more inclusive future, and I think the Pittsburgh activist scene is STILL tighter than that in most cities! Much love to the Merton Center!!
Yes, money for jobs...
by ...
Tuesday, Apr. 29, 2003 at 4:50 PM
Dan P. wrote: "Money for jobs and education, not for bombs and occupation.
I like it. You could alternately do 'books and education' which would perhaps make more sense."
...actually, government spending for jobs makes a heck of a lot of sense. It was the basis of the popular and successful "new deal" of the 30's. That many today would think the phrase "money for jobs _doesn't_ make sense just shows how successful the neoliberals have been in privatizing peoples expectations.
The new-new-deal would be more ambitious and include massive government spending on healthcare, new sustainable energy technologies, rebuilding of cities and public transit on the livable car free model, a national energy-efficient high speed rail infrastructure, the arts, independent public media, parks, etc.
This program would create huge numbers of jobs for every skill, trade and talent.
POG march
by john p.
Tuesday, Apr. 29, 2003 at 5:28 PM
The main AWC flyers didn't even list pog's march. I'd imagine it's hard to build unity in such a situation.
the issue of tactics.
by --
Tuesday, Apr. 29, 2003 at 5:44 PM
while I agree that not accepting a diversity of
tactics frameworks limits thing that is not the only reason for the failure of the re-convergence.
as was already pointed out this event was lacking
in key areas such as energy, creativity, speakers, puppets, and more. focusing only on tactics does a disservice because allowing space for varied tactics
is not always necessary whereas putting on events that don't leave people with a hopeless feeling will always be.
i was at the march 16th pog anti-war event and the AWC re-convergence. The differences between the two were shocking.
and for christs sack if you're going to have feeder marches have them on the streets. what was the point?
we need to examine the reasons why the re-convergence failed and move on.
urgh
by q'
Tuesday, Apr. 29, 2003 at 6:04 PM
from Pete Schell (head of AWC) message about the convergence
"Locally, lots of people were afraid to march in the streets again given the unfair arrests and beating by the police on March 20. By successfully marching in
the streets without any significant problems with the police, we helped to bring people�s confidence in anti-war protests back up."
that is a pretty big candy coated statement. People knew from the start that march 20th was a un-permitted demo for the purpose of disrupting business as usual.
the reconvergence was a event planned in conjuntion with the police where there were peace marshalls (one for every 20 people) to make sure no one did anything "un-approved".
Additionally, pog and others did return to the streets on march 30th. If people are so afraid to attend marches that they need an event like the reconvergence to feel safe again why aren't they attending the weekly vigils? or some of the many other events that are occuring against the war? the fact is this was a shitty event that was a step backwards for the movement. instead of bullshiting about making people feel safe again let's accept the facts and move on.
brainstorming
by Jani
Tuesday, Apr. 29, 2003 at 6:10 PM
I agree that a diversity of tactics need to be done.
I got a couple ideas, but they are just beginning ideas:
*everyone wears tape over their mouths with the word PEACE written on it. (Saw Michael Douglas do this in a march).
*Chain march or sit-in
*large group of people wear all black , white makeup, and silently hold facts about how much the Iraq and Afghanistan wars hurt the people, such as:
-According to the UN, half the population has only enough food to last a few weeks.
-35 Baghdad hospitals are closed because of looting and arson.
-The 3 that still function report lack of basic medical supplies, such as antiseptic, bandages, and most medicines. (People holding these signs can look wounded and sick).
-Garbage collection and removal in Iraq has not happened for over a month.
-Cholera outbreaks have been reported in Basra due to the coalition forces bombing sewage treatment plants.
-Electricity, sanitation, and communications were all seriously damaged during the US war and have yet to be restored.
-US Marines killed 14 citizens and wounded dozens more in a protest against US Occupation in Mosul.
-Over 3,000 Iraqis have been killed, and this doesn't count the thousands who have died over the 12 years of sanctions against Iraq.
,.........Facts like that.
Maybe people could hand out flyers with these facts on them to people in the subways, downtown, in malls, etc.
There needs to be more knowledge getting out there to the common person about what is really going on. We need to get them informed and link this war to the long history of US's occupations in other countries like Japan, Kosovo, Haiti, Somalia, Burma, and others.
These are just ideas. I really believe that in order to make the protests and marches have an impact, more people need to get involved. The only way to do that is get them more information.
Ummmm...
by Wheatpaster
Tuesday, Apr. 29, 2003 at 7:08 PM
I am NOT in favor of censorship, but I don't know how crazy I am about certain organizers being singled out in this debate. I think we CAN use this venue to look at how to make the next rally better.
The AWC worked very hard to bring this action against US Imperialism into fuition, faults and all, and that should be kept in mind. There are valid criticisms about how the event was organized, but personal comments in the public eye will only further fragment the movement.
I know how hurt POG organizers were after being dissed in the public media by fellow activists after M20. Because of this experience I believe any comments about the organizers in the AWC can best be taken to them personally. According to my e-mail, the next AWC meeting is May 10th.
Fuck the troops, support their children
by one of the bad protesters
Tuesday, Apr. 29, 2003 at 8:06 PM
Be sure to ask the yellow ribbon set what they mean by "support the troops". They won't be able to tell you. Ask them if the jingoistic screensaver is supporting anyone. Does their little flag pin help anyone but China?
Perhaps we could have some kind of rally, and/or food or toy drive for military families. Many of them are having difficulties making ends meet. Very little of that astronomical military budget goes to "supporting the troops", much less their families. Countless mainstream press articles illustrate the plight of these other victims of US imperialism.Tales of wives lining up at the food banks, 16,000 military families recieving food stamps, unable to buy anything off-base, the LA Times even featured a military wife at Camp Pendleton who was morbidly grateful for the extra $300 dollars a month of hazard pay, which still wasn't as much as her recenlty deployed husband's extra income as a pizza delivery driver. Their struggle is no different than that of any other working poor familiy. It may help garner us some public support without all the ugly patriotic bullshit. Make it clear that we oppose the occupation, but we support the spouses and children, despite the refusal of their bosses to do so.
Oops, I was unclear
by Dan P.
Tuesday, Apr. 29, 2003 at 8:37 PM
Don't get me wrong, "money for jobs" is clear and has a perfectly understood meaning. I was just saying that when you combine it with education, you get "money for jobs and education" which aren't very directly related. Money for books and education would make it into a pro-education chant instead of a pro-everything-else-that-we-need and anti-war chant.
I think they're both interesting. I don't particulary care which catches on.
support the troops
by me
Tuesday, Apr. 29, 2003 at 9:03 PM
I think that is a great idea to have a support the troops drive or something like that! I read in an article that some of the privates make only minimum wage. That's not much to live on. Especially if they have families.
Don't get me wrong, I really don't think soldiers should have their asses kissed for going to Iraq and blindly obeying orders, but most of them were college kids who were used by the empire for greedy reasons.
If we have a food/toy drive or something like that, we are uniting the anti-war people with the "yellow ribbon" crowd. And this is a good idea, it shows that the anti-war crowd is concerned for fellow humans and it bridges the gap between us.
Pair this with info on the real story and it would maybe be a success.?
whoaa
by Evan N
Tuesday, Apr. 29, 2003 at 9:21 PM
I don't find pete's statement candy coated at all. it is true. The rebuilding of trust between the city police and the anti-war movement is essential to a diversity of tactics. If the police are going to bust up every march due to the fact that they have no faith in us being able to be orderly then there is no outlet for those who feel like protesting in a safe environment. Alot of people feel fear about going to marches after the 20th and it is essential to reassure people that the police will not be brutal all of the time. "accept the facts and move on" go tell that to everyone that didn't show up because they were afraid they were going t get the shit beat out of them by the police. The AWC made this a safe event. that was their goal. Don't expect everyone to be willing to subject themselves to beating and arrest.
Also, abotu the "Money for jobs and education not for war and occupation" chant, i was the one who started that one on the megaphone because i, too, got sick of all of the old ones, and the other new ones that i started were too confusing or something so the crowd didnt get into them.
I also agree that the Chaka Kahn chant was uncalled for, but jennifer was just being funny when she said that, she did take it a little to far and recognized that in a humorous way when she was like "i'm never going to be invited to emcee again" or something.
Going forward----------together.
by Someone else
Tuesday, Apr. 29, 2003 at 9:37 PM
Without having a vested interest in the outcome of the AWC vs POG question, let me make some observations as to what I believe the re-convergence might have meant or didn't mean to the average Pittsburgher. To the average person who encountered the protestors on Saturday, whether that was through the feeder-marches, the gathering in Market Square, the march to the federal bldg or the follow-up coverage in the local media(as shitty as it was.....always is) it's likely you concluded, if nothing else, that there still existed a peace movement and that it was vocal and present. For people who are scared about the times we're in and who may have sat this demo out, I'd like to think it may have emboldened them to act next time. They know now that a substantial organized resistance continues to exist. To the larger group of citizens, they were reminded that the war and occupation are not over and neither has an active portion of the population here been lulled into thinking it has. Now, does that mean it was the most creative bad-assed demo in the current peace upheaval? Of course not. From speakers, to agit-prop(or lack of), to tone and on, the specific criticisms leveled at the re-convergence are valid and should be taken seriously and debated further. But I do plead ignorant to what underlies a gratuitous disparaging tone about the tactics of one school vs the other. In my experience, anti-war supporters, AWC and others, have expressed the highest admiration for POG. If somebody from the AWC leadership or rank and file made critical comments about POG i would truthfully have to say that it has been the exception rather than the rule. I'm not familiar with the comments made, public or otherwise, that may have left some feelings a little raw but I would certainly think that in the face of the task before us that we'd bury the tone and 'tude but not the specifics about how we feel about the re-convergence or any other political matter in Pittsburgh
waaaaaahhh
by etta
Tuesday, Apr. 29, 2003 at 9:50 PM
de_tritus@yahoo.com
i cant believe noone wants to hash this out in person.
do none of you see the real value in sitting down and
having long painful conversation together.
really talk this shit out?
indy media is awesome but does not facilitate healthy
communication.
you can email off indymedia and we can make a time
and then post it to the list.
searching for hope, optimism and understanding...
and a friggin healthy critique...
new direction
by stone
Tuesday, Apr. 29, 2003 at 10:47 PM
foo9999@hotmail.com
i think a lot of the ineffectiveness of the re-convergance is a direct result of the end of most of the violence in Iraq, but that is by no means the only reason. i think that a large problem of the peace/anti-war movement, is that we are now lacking direction, and strong leadership, there needs to be some transition into possibly a pre-emptive anti-war movement for syria or iran or anti-occupation and corporate contracting in iraq, we need to attack the problems and issues from all sides, and branch out away from the strict anti-war movement
AWC
by Evan N
Wednesday, Apr. 30, 2003 at 7:28 AM
yes, talkin this shit out is great, anyone who wants to and feels like changing the local peace movement instead of whining about the AWC "buerocracy" can come to the next AWC meeting and give their input. It will be a healthy critique, i'm sure the next couple AWC meetings will be reconvergence critique.
the Pgh peace movement...
by itzal agame
Wednesday, Apr. 30, 2003 at 10:44 AM
...like so much of activism in this city is shackled by the various internal disputes within the movement, whether between individuals or between organizations. Comments on the re-convergence are a perfect example of this. There will be no real lasting success here until people start to iron those differences out and realize that what we oppose is much greater than the differences between us. That won't be easy because it calls for tolerance and open-mindedness. Etta is right in that the first step is to get together and talk - if we're sure that everybody and anybody at both "extremes" of the debate is welcome to the discussion, that is.
On a more positive note, the Pgh peace movement has achieved something HUGE here over the past few months. I heard there were a handful of people at the protest organized after Gulf War 1, so 500 this time round is pretty amazing. Personally I think that's mainly due to a small number of very hard-working people at TMC and to POG, who have brought color where there was a lot of grayness before, and also to the existence of a growing # of "alternative places" like the Quiet Storm and 1877.
Last thing: I agree the speakers were a yawn on Saturday - too many and too long (pushing back some great musicians who didn't get on stage until well after 5 when most people had gone home). When are we going to have the courage to open up the mic at rallies to everyone - 3 minutes maximum each for anyone who wants to talk for example? Granted you might get a couple of pro-war people up there but so what, this is what democracy looks like right?
etta
by ...
Wednesday, Apr. 30, 2003 at 4:13 PM
etta,
why do you assume that none of this stuff has been talked about in person? in fact the individuals who people have a problem with have been continually told the problems they are causing and how to improve the process. the critique issue is also pretty moot. the issues of why this convergence would fail were brought up many times to people in the awc with no change in how things were being organized. why do others in the community have the responsibility to subject themselves to 4 hr meetings of groups that are dominated by a small clique that refuses to relinquish power. from what I know you are not involved in the AWC, POG, TMC, or organizing the anti-war events they've put together. that's fine, but I don't understand how you then know about what conversations have or have not taken place. it's pretty insulting to go why don't you all just talk about it... and why would I be calling you about it? someone who has not been involved in the local anti-war organizing, to talk over shit you have not been a part of?
what?
by Evan N
Wednesday, Apr. 30, 2003 at 9:27 PM
the AWC dominated by a small clique? thats crap. new members there are given first priority in voicing their opinions. what kind of twisted view do you have of the AWC being some sort of peace-dictatorship beurocracy? give it a break man. come to a meeting and if people don't like your suggestions thats your own fault. if you dont like it? start your own AWC. don't criticize other's efforts. Also why are you trashing etta for trying to encourage dialogue? the entire point of going to meetings is dialogue, so basically your telling her to do what she just suggested.
Ironing out differences
by Sam
Wednesday, Apr. 30, 2003 at 10:32 PM
I do think that some sort of meeting should be called to iron out differences between the various groups, as Etta suggested. Yes, some AWC people ignored criticism. It's a classic example of groupthink in action. And yes, this meeting will probably be tedious and annoying. But it's necessary. We can either sit around and fret about how we didn't take each others' criticisms into account, or we can try to have a serious discussion.
That said, this meeting should take place *outside* of the forum of the AWC. The AWC is not the final arbiter in all problems affecting the anti-war movement. The various groups opposed to the war are autonomous entities. Furthermore, by seeking a forum outside the domain of any group, then we open the floor to honest criticism of any group. No one group is given the privilege of being "in charge".
Evan
by Sam
Wednesday, Apr. 30, 2003 at 10:38 PM
"give it a break man. come to a meeting and if people don't like your suggestions thats your own fault. if you dont like it? start your own AWC."
Yes, more sectarianism, that's *exactly* what we need...
to....
by etta
Wednesday, Apr. 30, 2003 at 10:48 PM
halo anonymous..
my cry was to invite people to talk with me. im sorry
that i have assumed people have not been talking
about it. i have just not seen any ads for meetings
to specifically discuss this topic. i also don't feel i have
the right to attend the other meetings and only
air criticism. and i guess i assumed if people had
been talking about it, actions would change, instead
of being the same. and yes pog busted out all creative
with the carnival which was a change. my lifestlye also
has me on the road for long periods of time, so i was
only in town for 3 weeks before the january thing...
and frankly, i just dont feel like i fit in with any of the
groups involved. i am going to be here all summer
and try to get involved more.
it just seems to me..all the groups involved, myself
included do A LOT OF TALKING about but not to people they have issues with, (this is from my own conversations with people were folks talk to me and say things like just between you and me) and i guess that's why
indy media comes in handy cuz people can be anonymous..i feel like its really passive aggressive.
and doubly so, because you don't know who you are
talking to so you have no frame of reference of
where the person is coming from.
and yes i could go to the AWC meetings but everything
i have heard about them makes me not want to go and
like i previously said i would feel uncomfortable attending an AWC meeting and just bitching. or spending a month at every meeting listening until
i earn my right to bitch. maybe this is just what i need to do and not be so impulsive.
i am merely proposing we get together under no
auspice of a any group affiliation, assess
the "movement", critique ourselves.
i would appreciate people to critique to blarney out of me. i need a fucking mentor. i would also appreciate
any one who would like to sit down and
talk with me about it in a non meeting setting.
or even or personal email.
im easy to find, i leave trails...
in my traveling i have talked with lots of activists
in other communities, so if nothing else, i can
share these conversations with people.
i dunno....im becoming jaded, up in arms,
and wary of the coming police state.
One thing to keep in mind...
by dingo
Wednesday, Apr. 30, 2003 at 10:48 PM
...when searching for honest answers for the low re-convergence turnout: nothing that happened (or didn't) at the event influenced whether people showed up. Their decision to come or not was already made before the event started. If the event was boring & lame, that's a separate issue from why people didn't come in the first place--they had no idea what the speakers or chants would be like.
My 2 cents on why I didn't come: the war in Iraq is in fact history--nothing to protest. There may be reason in the future to protest a prolonged occupation or a further invasion, but the fact is that if you protest every other week like clockwork, you dilute the rage & the energy to the point where it's all a big yawn.
One BIG nothing
by George K.
Thursday, May. 01, 2003 at 12:58 PM
dodgerambler@yahoo.com
well, once again, i come back to see what the "indy" people are buzzing about. Is there are great organizing effort going on? A plan? A vision?
Hell no. nothing of the sort. massively disorganized as always. it is really pathetic to see you losers sit back and debate such micro issues as "who talks to who" when you cannot even get a good protest together. when you do get around to protesting, you are surprised that you are arrested and whine about it.
what a bunch of children. The Pittsburgh movement is so backward, you will never be organized. your need to feel like all of you are individually empowered stifles you. you need a leader and that is the bottom line. but you are all so egotistical and arrogant, you will never have one, and you are easily supressed.
hahahahahahahahahahahaha
Start over...
by Allison
Thursday, May. 01, 2003 at 1:10 PM
(apologies if a previous message got sent which wasn't complete - I went to hit the hard return on the keyboard, and the message I was writing disappeared - not sure where it went...)
Anyway, I was trying to make the point that all the people bitching on the list need to come to the meeting that David Meireran is proposing. I for one want to be able to see you, and take note of who you are and what your agenda is. If you have some constructive criticism to make, even better. Personally, in the PATRIOT state we are currently living in, with all of the nasty comments being thrown around here, I want to know who you are, and whether or not you are someone truly in the PEACE movement, and not some infiltrator trying to weaken us. AND, I do not think that many of the comments posted here are helpful, but more on the side of hurtful. Email is not the right forum to discuss issues that are so important. It does not encourage the kind of dialog we need in order to improve things.
YOU HAVE NOT POINT, YOU HAVE NO MESSAGE
by Al Oser
Thursday, May. 01, 2003 at 7:42 PM
The real issue us that the "activists" HAVE NOT MESSAGE. YOU HAve no sensible message todeliver so no one is going to listen. It isn't that the other people out there are out to get you or stupid or un-enlightened. It is that you have no message that can be discerned above teh din of your ranting to and among yourselves. Look, your biggest concern is that you didn't have good chants. What kind of stupid childish BS is that . Unless you are going to cheerleading camp or are a band of Gregorian Monks then your concern shoudl really be that you have no message. But no, this just proves that you have no direction. THe "peace movement" or what ever the F movement you are tehse days is toast. It's over. You blew it. You made yourselves out to be fools.
You TOTALLY F'ed UP. You want to know what the "future" of the "movement" in Pittsburgh is going to be? It is going to be a bunch of peopel gettign together to have meetings about what they should have meetings about and how they cram every disgruntled fringe groups message into the message of the movement. What a joke. You people couldn't put together a prom committee let alone make a change in society with your movement.
Look at the pictures fromthe "convergence" peopel in stupid hats, people sitting on their asses in Market Square trying to bum change from paser-by, and about 6 high school kids out on a lark walking down fifth avenue. THis is hilarious !!!!! I am glad you have your movement, because you give the rest of us something to be thankful for ....that we are not so F'ing lost that we have to walk around begging people to pay attention to us.
Join the Movement. Be an apathetic pathetic loser like the rest of them.
thoughts on convergence...
by Mary Hart
Thursday, May. 01, 2003 at 8:50 PM
mh5r@andrew.cmu.edu
I had meant to attend previous events, but hadn't, so the 4/26 event is the first one I attended. My impressions of the event were positive...It was a good-sized crowd, and it seemed to me to be diverse in terms of age, ethnicity, and so on. I thought it was great to see so many people out there, working to try to make a difference. I was glad to be able to participate.
I did not think the speakers were bland. I've hear a lot about Molly Rush over the years, and this was the first time I got to hear her. I have great respect for the work the ACLU does, but this is the first time I've hear Vic W. Tim Vining has done tremendous work since he's been in Pittsburgh, and it was good to hear him. And so on. As a first-time attendee, I found the speakers, for the most part, inspiring, and made a good case for why we should still be protesting, which is a question I hear asked a lot.
I'm appreciative of all the work that went into planning and organizing, and the fact that everyone was safe, and there were not issues with police.
I have kids, and I try to tell them that you can do things to make a difference, and that it's good to stand up for what you believe in. When I looked around on Saturday and saw lots of people around the ages of my kids who were working to make a positive difference, it made me feel hopeful about the future.
Anyway, wanted to send some positive feedback, because I thought it was appropriate to do so...and I think the idea of a planning meeting that was posted is a good one.
I do see some of the negative discussion on Indymedia, clashes with authorities, and so on, as being a lot like the larger war situation in microcosm. It's kind of prompted me to think about what I can do personally to get along better with people- peace on a local level, if you will, as well as the global level.
no gods, no masters
by jani
Thursday, May. 01, 2003 at 9:56 PM
Let's all sit around and pretend the world is a great place. We can share lollipops and smell the pretty flowers. Why do anything about the wars, the torturings, the sweatshops, the disease, the hunger, the death going on in the world? When we can buy Old Navy Cargo pants, go to the lastest movie, roller blade down the block, dress up for the prom, order pizza to be delivered to our doors.... WHO CARES what happens to the rest of the bastards out there? My biggest goal in life is to get a job (any job where I make lots of money) so I can buy 2 new cars every 5 years, have a house in the overcrowded suburbs and reproduce and make more selfish brainwashed kids just like me?? They will go to school and pledge allegience to a flag that has been instrumental in pulling the wool before our eyes. They will pledge allegience to a god, OUR version of god that everyone must obey. We don't call him Allah or Buddha or Mohammed... we call him Jesus. He dies on the cross for us and we must feel guilty he died for our "sins." Religious guilt and patriotism will confuse their minds and our kids will become the next generation of blind bats lead by a killer. By then there will be no lands for "the land of the free" to "liberate" (i.e. conquer) and America will fall just like all the empires before it. But it will fall internally from those within who want change. They will sit on their high horses laughing at "disorganization" and "confusion" but they will be surprised when they fall.
Jani's Got It !!
by A True America
Friday, May. 02, 2003 at 10:47 AM
I agree with Jani. Finally, someone here gets it. America is great because we just are. The rest ofthe world is just jealous and hates us for that. F Them. Let them build strong economies and great Universities. But they can't because of their corrupt governmetns and self-righteous leaders that only want to exploit and torture the people of their own countries. SO it is easy to point to America as having it all, and being the root of all problems elsewhere as a distractions from the failings of their own governments.
JANI FOR PRESIDENT !!!
sarcasm
by Jani
Friday, May. 02, 2003 at 8:58 PM
"A TRue America":
I hope you realize that I was being sarcastic in my last post. America endorses this suffering, torture, sweatshops, wars, etc throughout the world. Americans are the most delusional people in the world. We don't see what is going on in the rest of the world because we are being fooled.
But then again, so is the rest of the world.
Ooooops, sorry Jani
by A True American
Friday, May. 02, 2003 at 11:53 PM
FOr a moment I had hope, but you crushed it. You are not a great thinker, you are just another ignorant twit who can only harp about all of the perceived evils of America and never look to the root cause of any of the world's problems elsewhere. Sorry Jani, you shouldn't even be dog catcher let alone President. My mistake.
Root cause of the world's problems
by Jani
Saturday, May. 03, 2003 at 12:12 AM
What you don't understand sarcasm? I thought it was apparent, but you must not be the sharpest tool in the shed.
I don't want to be president, nor dog catcher in your world.
And let me clarify: I don't believe that America is the root cause of the evils in the world. America is not the problem, its the group of people at the top in it for themselves. The great thing about America is that truth comes out, even though it is shunned and shot down by those in power. No gods, no masters. The best plan for a REAL "democracy."
Religions and governments oppress. American power is the most powerful so it oppresses the most.
Consumption
by Theo
Tuesday, May. 13, 2003 at 10:03 AM
TheoK444@aol.com
Right on Jani, i couldn't agree with you more. American's values have become so screwed up i'm not sure there is any hope for this country. Everybody runs around with their yellow ribbons saying they 'support our troops', but what they are most interested in is buying more useless stuff. After 9-11, all Bush could tell us was to keep shopping. I especially can't stand those on the right who profess to be Christian, yet manage to be pro-war and never utter a criticism of the greedy, materalistic lifestyle that Americans live. Have they read the Bible? Are they aware of Jesus' comments about wealth and greed? Remember the eye of the needle? We are getting richer every year while most of the rest of the world remains just as poor. Jesus would be disgusted.
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