community-based, non-corporate, participatory media
Men Against Patriarchy Saturday May 17th 11:30-1:30
by some ARA dudes
Monday, May. 12, 2003 at 9:31 PM
shenkianity@hotmail.com (email address validated)
For Pittsburgh Indymedia. A meeting for men interested in getting together in an open atmoshpere to talk, with a focus on proactive action, about mysogyny, sexism etc.
When: Saturday May 17th 11:30-1:30
Where: Project 1877
What: Men Against Patriarchy Meeting
How to be a kick ass dude in the movement 101
This meeting is for anyone identifying as male to come share our experiences in a safe place with the intent of dealing with our internalized sexist mentalities and misogynistic tendencies. This is not meant to be a guilt fest but instead to be a proactive way to improve our own experiences in activism, culture, etc. and the experiences of anyone identifying as any thing other then male.
While this particular meeting is only open for male identifying individuals, in the future we hope to have completely open public events. We acknowledge that men have plenty of safe spaces, there generally isn’t space for these sorely needed discussions. Plus, men need to learn how to handle their own shit without always relying on wimmin to help us “be better activists.” We, as males, must take our fare share of responsibility for the fucked up shit that happens in our communities.
love,
some ARA dudes
M.Alenvy
by Sam
Tuesday, May. 13, 2003 at 4:51 PM
'Just because you are male (or want to be male) does not mean you are an oppressor or buy into any "patriarchy." That is just stupid !!! '
You don't have to buy into it. It exists, all around us. Women make 2/3 as much money as men. Women are still encouraged to become nurses and paralegals, rather than doctors and lawyers. There's yet to be a female President or Vice-President. Every branch of government is disproportionately male. The media present images of women suffering from self-imposed starvation as "healthy". Men are expected to be dominant, women submissive; women who don't conform to this ideal are labeled "bitches".
No, not every man is sexist. But being a man in this country (hell, in *any* country) confers certain privileges. As the responses to this post themselves make evident, American men are (to some extent) expected to behave in a sexist manner. That's one way in which patriarchy is perpetuated, and this workshop is devoted to combatting it.
"Be PROUD of your malenesss."
Why on Earth would anyone be proud of their biological sex? It's not like you earned it or anything.
"I Am MAN Hear ME ROAR !!!"
I'm impressed.
"being a man is pretty damn fine and I ain't guilty for it at all."
You shouldn't feel guilty. But you should recognize that you occupy a position of relative privilege in American society.
...a few more things
by 2balls
Tuesday, May. 13, 2003 at 7:14 PM
This has me really fired up. So what if I do have a privaledged position just by being a MAN? I like it, I don't want to change it just because some women out there feel bad. Can't run around trying to make everyone equal. I have beer to consume and people to take advantage of already!
Just how big is your penis, MAN? Mine's a full quarter of an inch longer than the accepted average. I feel powerful every day!
huh?
by Nick
Tuesday, May. 13, 2003 at 7:28 PM
What exactly is a "male identifying individual?"
Response to Nick
by Sam
Tuesday, May. 13, 2003 at 9:34 PM
A male-identifying individual would be one who is male in both sex and gender -- that is, both biologically and socio-psychologically, or who is male in gender, but not sex; a woman who identifies with masculinity.
so...
by lex
Tuesday, May. 13, 2003 at 9:54 PM
we're supposed to help women feel like they're equals? doesn't that make them weaker than us? if they are equals they can just fucking deal. either ignore it or change it yourself. so if you're strong you get called a bitch, big fucking deal. I'm kinda fem so I get called a fag. Life sucks, just shut up and live it.
no way
by Nick
Wednesday, May. 14, 2003 at 10:24 AM
While there are several ways to point out the ignorance of the above comment, I�ll just say that the moment you say �Oh, well. Life sucks for everyone,� is the moment they win.
no
by -
Wednesday, May. 14, 2003 at 11:18 AM
just pointing out that if women feel they can't be strong and independent than that is their problem, not the problem of the men of the world. Women have to deal with it, not men. If men have to get together to discuss what they can do to help then obviously women aren't as strong as men. Don't think I'm some woman-hating nut either, they're our equals and deserve equal treatment. I just think assuming they need our help is hypocritical, and I refuse to join the middle/upper-class self-hating white male club. Also, have women contributed anything to society? If you answer "yes" then you agree that women helped build a patriachy, if you answer "no"....
Macho, macho man; I want to be a macho man
by q
Wednesday, May. 14, 2003 at 1:05 PM
first off - can you even define what consitutes "middle class". i only know a few ARA dudes but i can assure you that the ones i know are not middle/upper class. fuck they ain't even middle class-what ever that means. middle class is a term that is so loose it hardly has any value.
i dont really know what the main thought behind this meeting is so this may be a tad off-base but...
for any of you "real men" out there who don't understand how men have played a huge part in shaping womyn's development(mentally and socially) through-out history well i feel sorry for you. there have been numerous studies done to show how womyn(and men) are affected by standard social roles. the fact that womyn were told they weren't strong analytical thinkers changed the way their minds developed(this study was done in the 70's-but some of the same social roles stil exist). tell me who controlled the schools, universities and jobs. look at how womyn are depicted in advertising and in other media. then tell me why so many girls have fucking eating disorders. then tell me who(men or womyn) heads the companies that advertise this way. oh yeah i guess womyn are lazy and dumb cause they don't own many big companies or there isn't a great deal of them in politics. or mabey its cause womyn were only first allowed to work, be educated and vote not even one hundred years ago. so to the guys out there that say it ain't our fault i kinda agree but you should be aware of how men's actions in the past affect EVRYONE today. and by allowing these actions to continue it will be our fault. plus i really dont know why you'd wanna stick up for the good old boys-its not like they're lookin out for you.
and for 2balls--you say you can't worry about making (men and womyn) equal cause you have peeps to tkae advantage of. thats funny. don;t you think there are plenty of men eyeing you up to take advantage of you? irony rules.
q
by -
Wednesday, May. 14, 2003 at 4:44 PM
what i am saying is how can anyone who is oppressed "contribute" to the system of oppression.
Are women in this country really "oppressed"? So if they're strong, independent, and successful people call them "bitches". Do you really think that makes them oppressed? They have all the opportunity to succeed and they are the only ones holding themselves back. I would hardly call what this society does to women as oppression, and I would point out that 50% (or is it more now?) of this society is female and certainly capable of shaping it. Calling them an oppressed group unable to contribute to the society around them just makes them sound weak and stupid.
how are the african merchants the same as african slaves headed for america? i hope not-cause it doesn't make any sense.
I'm just pointing out that within a set group of people there are many different interests. Not all women feel oppressed and some are perfectly happy. My guess is the happiest ones are the ones just trying to live life as they want, which is how we should all try to live.
who fucking started to change womyn's roles-womyn. they didn't contribute to it they started to tear it down.
So during the hundreds of thousands of years of human evolution they only decided to "tear it down" in the last 200 or so years, but they never once contributed to it during the rest? My point is that women started it and THEY need to finish it. In other words, this male hate festival is a useless gesture designed purely to compensate these men for some guilt they feel in their lives (more than likely their mothers died early on or something caused them to feel like bad sons.)
sean
by q
Thursday, May. 15, 2003 at 11:46 AM
"Are women in this country really "oppressed"? So if they're strong, independent, and successful people call them "bitches". Do you really think that makes them oppressed?"
im not saying that american women today are overtly "oppressed"-i was talking about before some changes came about. i was responding to your statement of how womyn "contributed to patriarchy"(which i still don't understand and don't think i will via this board). but you must admit that there are still are social stigmas womyn face due to their (once, in your opinion it semms) lack of equallity. ( dude if you think the only wrong actions in this country toward womyn are men calling them bitches then wake the fuck up.) i think people, i'm guilty myself, have short memories when it comes to history. it was only 1920 when womyn could vote in this country and only 1964 when the civil rights act banned gender discrimination in employment. that's only 39 years ago. today womyn are paid less for comparable skills--this is equallity? this is freedom? and your point of there being over 50% womyn capable of changing things for themselves--yeah that's a pretty statement. i certainly believe womyn can do things on their own-i just think its important for men, who don't agree with patriarchy or who believe in equal rights for all, to suport our friends. hey, if you think this patriarchal system is in YOUR best interests then by all means keep your mouth shut. and just to add-i find it disturbing that you'd quote that mother fucker(who's post has been deleted) who said woymn who are strong....are bitches. these kinds of guys, and maybe you, label womyn bitches when they don't get what they want out of them(ie conformity(sam))
"My point is that women started it and THEY need to finish it."
sarted what? i ask again-what the fuck is that? can anyone answer this? are you saying womyn "started" patriarchy or they started to change the way society look at gender roles.
i'm amazed, sean, that you consider this a "male hate festival". i think its great some guys support their friends and support the idea that everyone IS equal and should be treated the same.
breath of fresh air
by Astria
Thursday, May. 15, 2003 at 4:41 PM
This is to 2balls: I am a very stong, attractive woman. I just found out about this group of ARA Gentleman (and I use that term in its truest sense with the utmost respect). I want to thank them and I must say that I find them extrememly sexy. I am eager to learn more about the group.
q
by -
Thursday, May. 15, 2003 at 4:42 PM
sarted what? i ask again-what the fuck is that? can anyone answer this? are you saying womyn "started" patriarchy or they started to change the way society look at gender roles.
jeez...I was going to write a long response to you then I got to this section. Brush up on your reading comprehension skills and come back. Oh, and to answer your really basic question, I meant that WOMEN started the movement to get WOMEN recognized as equals, and WOMEN have to finish it. Do you understand what I'm saying now? I'm done arguing with you. Your posts are barely coherent and obviously ignorant.
oi
by an ARA dude
Thursday, May. 15, 2003 at 5:48 PM
This is pointless and I told my self I wouldn't respond except to say that the attitude of 2balls et. al. is exactly why we think having a meeting/group like this is important. I do find it funny that some of the names you came up with for the ARA people implied wimpiness since we have been fighting a stereotype of sort of the oposite. Namely, that we have a tendency to beat the shit out of people like 2balls.
Side note, it is nice to see some support amid all this randomn name calling. Thanks yall, we went over this call and were hoping we wouldn't get a response like we have but oh well. Hopefully we will see alot of kick ass dudes on Saturday afternoon and we can maybe get on our way to figuring some shit out. I would invite 2balls but I have read previous examples of people like Chrystyna invited him to actually meet in person and he doesn't seem to do that.
umm....right....sure.
by scooby snaxxx
Thursday, May. 15, 2003 at 11:01 PM
so reading this is GOOD, it's helping me to figure out some things to TALK ABOUT this saturday.
one of them would be the question: Are men and women equal or due equal RESPECT?
I often think that because of the long history of repression that women have faced on this planet, they have developed cultural identities that are not the same as men. Just as men's identities have developed differently over the same time period. Often times this makes women and men more inclined to fill certain jobs and roles. While these are not all negative or positive, women are often less rewarded, recognized or respected for their efforts. This in turn creates a superiority complex amongst men that is of false construct. This leads me to think it maybe that we all need to learn how to relate with and amongst ourselves better than we currntly do.
GUILT?
By association with the likes of you, and others like you, 2 balls? yeah, but it's more like a feeling of shame.
I once felt guilty b/c of my skin and gender privilege, but guilt is a temporary emotion and not a very productive mindset to be in. Especially if you've got another mouth to feed, werk too much and/or are trying to affect some kinda change in this fucked up society.
MIDDLE/ UPPER CLASS?
i can tell you that none of the organizers of this discussion is any kinda debutante silver spoon suckin trustivist or what have you. Altho, I will ask: If someone isn't solidly working class, they are incapable of critical thot? most likely not. in fact they are more likely to have been taught the skills to effectively research and combat patriarchy. Something you should know about me, is that, I am not going to point fingers, or anything else, until i know for sure who is who.
So on that note, I hope some seriously funguys show up saturday.
and we..... drink and we drink and we drink....
and we....fight and we fight and we fight...
for a better world.
that's tight.
;p
peace.
awesome
by a girl
Friday, May. 16, 2003 at 1:03 AM
"I'm just a girl in the world... that's all that I'll ever be..."
-Gwen Stefani
I think it is great that some men are getting together to discuss patriarchy. That makes me feel so much hope now. It's not a guilt fest for them, its an open and enlightening discussion. But WE ALL (men and women) contribute to the way society views each gender and their roles). They were imposed on us as children:
Little boys who played with dolls were seen as babified and weak. But, when I was a little girl I could play with dolls AND matchbox cars. Interesting concept here. Men are controlled in the patriarchal society to become patriarchal themselves. The only thing that breaks apart the stereotypes is enlightenment. It is well known that the more educated parents encourage their children more and impose less sex gender roles on their children, probably because they are aware of sociological and psychological patterns from college level courses.
I also want to add that I am so frustrated and angered at the way women are portrayed and used in the media. I am sickened half naked women are everywhere selling beer, cars, soft drinks, and shoes. Sex sells, but 90% of the time it is women as the sex objects. Girls find it hard to gain self esteem and an identity in a culture that values beauty and body over anything else. A young girl is continuously bombarded with unrealistic images of "role models" from barbie dolls and disney cartoons to Britney Spares and Baywatch.
Hillary Clinton may be the first woman president, but I don't really see what good that will do to the world. She may as well be a white upper class man for all I care. She'll still lead a greedy patriarchal society.
I have a question..
Why do men find it necessary to look at all "hot chicks" they see? Why aren't they happy with the one beautiful women at home who loves them?
dissapointment and disgust
by pizzaman!
Sunday, May. 18, 2003 at 3:27 AM
Okay, I didn't go but rumor has it the only people who showed were in fact ALREADY FEMINIST. If people who differ with the theme of this workshop (yet post their differences in the IMC medium) were really interested in dialogue, why didn't they attend? Are yinz super-busy or just too passive/agressive to express your sexist outlook on society in person? Just curious...
I'm Too Busy
by AnchovieBoy?
Sunday, May. 18, 2003 at 7:12 AM
We post our differences here because it is a convenient and open forum. Nothing says that I have to show up at you meeting to state any differing opinion to be credible. For one hting, it is too damn difficult for me to get to the Bloomfield for these gab fests. Why are your meeetings always at some inconvenient city venue which requires a day long bus ride to get to or doesn't offer any parking and is in an area of the city that I really dont perceive as safe. The other reason is usually tha tI have other things to do that are frankly more omportant. If you have not changed my views with the weight of your reason and writing on this site, then I am not going to be converted at your meetings.
Yet the fact remains, that I am already a feminist ..... just not YOUR KIND OF feminist I guess. I find it possible to be a feminists, promote the rights of equality for women, and not have to blame men or myself for everything htat is wrong in society. I try to start by viewing women as equals at all times, and not looking at them as if they have some handicap that requires me to treat them diffenetly. That would be rude and would not be feminist. Screw the patriarchy, it is a figment of your self-loathing imagination. If you perception is skewed by that falicy then your analysis is destine to alwasy be flawed.
Come to your meeting?
by .................
Sunday, May. 18, 2003 at 11:49 AM
Didn't come to your meeting because I think you loons are off your rocker. Instead I opted for something more constructive--I went down to Club Ed and stuck some fives in the g-strings of some hard working independent women. Patriarchy! I love it!
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