PGHIMC - Pittsburgh Independent Media Center

discussion??!
by commentorite Monday, Sep. 08, 2003 at 9:15 AM
naaa1123@yahoo.com

"so what are these marches for, what are we? are we for creating peace in the community and seeking justice or are we for venting our - well justfied - feelings by throwing names around? is this how we're going to be effective in the long run? "

some important questions i for one think need to be considered, overlooked on another article:

"so what are these marches for, what are we?
are we for creating peace in the community and seeking justice or are we for venting our - well justfied - feelings by throwing names around?
is this how we're going to be effective in the long run? "
posted by: &

i made an attempt at asking and a halfass attempt at answering questions ive had, a few weeks back on a different article. again overlooked. i am very happy that someone other than myself and my groupings has some doubts/questions/concerns/etc about the generalized "Movement" and is willing to vocalize them. i personally think that "we" do have some very serious issues and questions we need to ask ourselves and work out. otherwise well either continuously implode or accomplish nothing more than "another cog in the wheel of the churning bullshit world and an excuse for police overtime pay", in 'our' role as the conscious of a disagreeable world situation. ---or maybe thats what some of you want? probably, but i think its time to question the effectiveness of this paradigm.

please: THINK ABOUT IT!!! maybe even discuss it here even? "we", i think, need a hell of allot more questions and a hell of allot more discussion.

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Critiques and Solutions
by wheatpaster Tuesday, Sep. 09, 2003 at 9:44 AM

We have seen a number of reactions and critiques of rallies/ protests/ demonstrations over the past few months on this website. Some have been spiteful, but some have been sincere concerns made by activists who care about the left and the movements within the left internationally and locally. (I say movements -plural- because even though all the issues are connected, no one is running The Movement... I always thought it sounds a bit vangaard).

I have personally attended over 3/4ths of the demos, and played a role in planning many this year. When I work on a rally and I read pointed critiques on those rallies, I believe that many of the comments are made from within those identified as leftists, not from trolls. However, the end result of so many pointed, spiteful critiques can leave organizers burnt out, feeling like our precious time has been wasted, and yearning to take back that precious free time we swear we used to know.

I think the critiques posted on this website can be useful to organizers if more solutions accompanied the critiques.

EXAMPLE CASE STUDY: Lets say I think pre-planned ochestrated march chants are lame and oppress free expression of those in attendance of the rally. Instead of attacking the organizers who wrote pre-planned march chants as oppressors, I propose offering a sollution, like: "at the beginning of rallies, organizers could benefit from asking activists what chants they would like shouted over the bullhorn during the march. Organizers could also loan the bullhorn to people who have ideas for new chants."

See how organizer-friendly posts are when solutions accompany critiques? Why, I would probably organize better from hearing such a nicely-phrased solution!

Okay, now ROLE PLAY....

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organizer friendly post #1
by * Tuesday, Sep. 09, 2003 at 10:55 AM

Yup - I completely understand what you are saying wheatpaster. Organizing is without a doubt an extremely frustrating, time consuming job with little reward and a mountain of criticism.

Here goes: we all are aware of a difference in opinion within the movement. Those who favor direct action & civil disobedience and those who will only attend a permitted march and have a problem with the more radical approaches to activism. It is nothing new. It has divided movements since the beginning. This being said I have a problem when a group breaks away from the permitted march (I'm talking about last Saturday in Mt. Oliver) and is acting on the NO JUSTICE NO PEACE chant. They carry a banner which says NO JUSTICE NO PEACE into the street and folks attending the permitted portion of the demo force them back onto the sidewalk and inform them they are endangering the safety of the march.

<In an organizer friendly tone> how can you tell people how to act @ a demonstration? In the future please do not discourage people from acting on their beliefs. We demonstrate AGAINST authoritarian tactics and there you are using those same tactics against the movement. Lets be completely honest and openly realize that there are many different ways of displaying dissent. But I think (within the movement) we all oppose police violence. I think (within the movement) we all oppose a police state. When someone has an opinion that differs from yours and takes to the street in an unpermitted fashion it does not help matters to force your opinion on them. I would not force people to enter the street against their own will. Please do not force people onto the sidewalk against their own will. This does not promote unity. When this situation happens again please allow those who want to demonstrate civil disobedience to do so. Everyone patiently listened to all those who spoke for PAPV. If anything was said that someone disagreed with - we all still listened.

To recap <still in an organizer friendly tone> if someone wants to perform a direct action please allow them to do so. They respect your beliefs, please allow them the same courtesy.

Thank you.

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Organizer friendly post #2
by * Tuesday, Sep. 09, 2003 at 11:12 AM

PS, the next time a group takes to the street tell them they have your support from the sidewalk.

Thank you again

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to #1
by johnrpgh Tuesday, Sep. 09, 2003 at 11:59 AM

last saturday the people weren't being yelled at by organizers, they were being yelled at by random SWP members...and it *was* a permitted march. the street was totally clear, blocked by police, and there was a permit for it.

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discussion
by crystal Wednesday, Sep. 10, 2003 at 6:08 AM

regarding the original discussion

we activists need to strongly reconsider out strategys. i read the postings that took
place that commentorite made refernece to and there was a good discussion about
what we do. i encourage everyone to read it if you haven't and reread it again if
you have. there was good discussion on how we present ourselves to the public
in the manner in which we dress, what we say, how we behave. i am one of those
who believes that we have in fact turned off a lot of people who would otherwise
agree with us simply because of our appearances. while we would like for people
to judge us on what we say rather than how we dress, it is a part of our society that
first impressions are very important. if we ignore this as we attempt to reach out to
the working people, we do so at the peril of our message. and the message
is more important than any one individuals desire to dress or say or act the way they wish.

i think its quite true that our movement has been so concerned with stressing
individual creativity that we have failed to work together as a cohesive group. when
we come together to march against the war, there are those who take the occasion
to present their own personal activism. so among the signs and voices saying 'no
war', we have people who are protesting for mumia, protesting for the forest and
water, protesting against corporations, and the like. we send a very confused
message. we recognize all these things are really about the same thing, they're
all interconnected. but most people that i've spoken to in the community do not make
a connection between mumia and the rainforest. they just don't, and we've got to learn
to taylor our messages better.

this is one area where the fascists have a huge advantage over us. they
are able to pinpoint one particular idea and get all their people focused on
that one issue and keep hammering it home. we've got to realize that their are
times for marching and protesting for different things and make sure that those
participating agree. we can have a protest that's just aimed at mumia and nothing
else. we can have a protest that's just aimed at saving our precious environment
and nothing else. and i know there are those out there who have tried to do
these things. but it seems everytime we are going to have a march on a certain
issue, we still have people who use the opportunity to do their own issue instead
of focusing on the issue at hand. it makes us all look like we are authors of confusion.

does anyone else here feel the same way? what can we do?

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own issue?
by peace Wednesday, Sep. 10, 2003 at 10:15 PM

What do you mean our own issue?

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peace
by Jm Thursday, Sep. 11, 2003 at 5:35 AM

I don't mean to speak for Crystal, but I'm pretty sure the comment made about doing "our own issue" ("we still have people who use the opportunity to do their own issue instead of focusing on the issue at hand") is refering to those who are protesting things outside the realm of the main reason for the protest.

For instance, if we are having a march against this fascist war and there is a subset of people within the march who are protesting for Mumia or the rainforest (like Crystal mentions as examples), then we could be sending a confused message. People might just view it as as a hodge-podge of a bunch of messages and not take it as seriously.

Crystal, I agree that if we could get everyone to stay on message, (whatever that message may be for those who organized the march) we could send a more cohesive message. But people are so against the vanguard notion of any real or preceived authority telling them what they can and cannot do, I just don't know how it would ever talk place. Once again, our diversity and desire not to impede upon the rights of others is a strength and, when it come to getting everyone to speak in a single voice on a single subject, a weakness.

But, I too would like to hear what other have to say.

I was up late last night. If I said some things in a manner that wasn't phrased in the right way, please forgive.

In solidarity.

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The issue
by Critical Thinker Thursday, Sep. 11, 2003 at 8:16 AM

The problems are State & Capital. War, pollution, terrorism, etc. are merely symptoms.

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a comment
by commentorite Thursday, Sep. 11, 2003 at 8:30 AM

for the purpose of stimulating thought:
why direct all criticism and suggestions to "organizers", couldnt the emphasis on organizers be another part of the failure; since the people arent acting for themselves?
couldnt a single monolithic messege be part of the "problem"?
why all this focus on ways to "improve" the tactic of the mass-protests? what about other options that could be more effective?
i think its clear that what we are doing now is not working very well, maybe thats a symptom of the tactic we are using rather than "problems" in our use of it?
"mass-protest" appears to be a very alienating tactic, middleclass people are scared by the "freaks" and window smashing, but poor minorities see only middle class white people at these things, maybe its time for something new?

again, think about it.

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3 clarifiying comments
by wheatpaster Thursday, Sep. 11, 2003 at 10:33 AM
starbuxsux@heartofdarkness.org

On directing concerns to "organizers":

The reason I suggested that critiques be accompanied by solutions (to paraphrase) is the general frustration so many people who have contributed to past demonstrations, in various ways, have felt by harsh (calling all the efforts a 'failure', for example) and at times directionless criticisms. I would think all "activists" organize in some ways: contributing to the planning, coordination, and implementation of subversion against fascism, right down to picking the outfit you choose to wear when you show up to a rally or the Peaceburgh sign tou tape in your window. Those who have put time into "organizing" "rallies" as one specific tactic have been targeted heavily lately, so I spoke just from that perspective. By all means, new people interested in helping with the coordination of rallies is absolutely encouraged, organizing these things is not an exclusive group... email.

I did not say all comments SHOULD be directed to organizers, which I think this last comment implies. There is a big difference, and if I did not make that clear, I apologize.

On the usefulness of rallies and marches within resistence: please include suggestions if you can. I hope the Tour of Greed proves to be an interesting alternative this weekend.

On the connections between speakers being more clear: Thanks crystal for providing positive feedback in a polite way. Those who have MCed rallies clearly need to examine this need.

While rainforests and Mumia have rarely if ever been tied to completely unconnected rally themes, the connections that exist could be more clearly explained. Police violence in PA and Mumia are obviously connected, as are the environment (Rain forests? Don't remember that rally) and the US military's use of land mines and explosive devices.

As far as a more appropriate appearance, that decision is mad by each participant who wakes up in the morning and decides to attend. I think the last time some group came up with a way for everyone to wear similiar garb out of solidarity, the result was a call to wear black and masks like the Zapatistas. Obviously, some have not agreed with this idea, while others have, and been demonized because of it. This morning, I wore my black hoody to work. It was cold. Point taken, though.

Again, thank you for heartfelt feedback crystal, and I'm not tryin' to speak for any groups, but rather myself on this.

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Critical Thinker
by Kyle Thursday, Sep. 11, 2003 at 11:27 AM

"The problems are State & Capital. War, pollution, terrorism, etc. are merely symptoms."

That's already been stated by Crystal.

"we recognize all these things are really about the same thing, they're all interconnected."

But I agree with her. People don't connect to our message when it includeds a plurality of things. I've heard the same things Crystal seems to have heard. People wondering what type of protest it was: were they protesting the war? the rainforest? Mumia? Palestinians? It all can get a little overwhelming from the outside looking in.

We need to continue to think on these things.

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re: kyle
by commentorite Friday, Sep. 12, 2003 at 6:59 AM

what exactly would be the aim of having a uniform, presentable messege for people?

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protests
by crystal Friday, Sep. 12, 2003 at 11:18 AM

i appreciate all the feedback i have read from others. it seems we have many
common goals and open discussion of how to move forward it is helpful.


jm, i thank you for your comments. to keep things brief i would say that you
have in general correctly represented what i was saying.

also thank you to commentorite, wheatpaster and kyle for your input.

commentorite asked what would be the purpose of a universal presentable message.
in an earlier post, (s)he asked if a single monolithic messege couldnt be part of the
problem. it is this i would like to address.

i can't say we have delivered a single message. as i had noted, it has been my
experience having taked to those in my community and my friends who are not
active in the struggle or really don't understand what it
is, that we are not sending a clear
concise message. they see several small groups withing a large group and it
appears to them that we all have our own individual interests we wish to present,
rather than all getting together to speak about the same interest.

I had a lengthy discussion about this with a comrade the other night, and he thought
that a variety of different people all bringing different messages to the march and doing
it in different ways was a strength of the movement. when i asked him about the
confusion that might cause to those who might be wondering the purpose of the
march if they see so many issues being presented at once, he said that would demonstrate
that we are not single-issued like the fascist, it would better appeal to people who want
more than the cut and paste world in which we live. while i see his point, i could
not completely agree.

we are trying to reach people who have not responded to the need of all working
people to join as one. so if we are to have a variety of people with different messages
using different methods, couldn't one of those different methods be everyone
agreeing that we could have marches where a single monolithic messege is
preseted by all involved?

and in a way, i'm with jm on the ability to be able and do this. it would have to be
understood that we are not doing this in an authorative manner, but are
simply trying to try a different method to see if it works.

i continue to appreciate your input.

thank you for your time.

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one message
by Jan Friday, Sep. 12, 2003 at 8:48 PM

I think that, as stated before, there is ONE message--
That message is to get control and information back into the hands of the people! No matter what the issue- the environment, the war, WTO, IMF, media monopoly, police violence... they can all be summed up into the idea that we want no more manipulation and disinformation from the minority in charge of the majority. Because if you look at all the issues... they are all caused by the bastards making decisions for us and telling us how to live. From the poor farmers in third world countries to the affluent citizens of the USA, our lives are in the hands of the stooges at the top of the pyramid.
But there really can't be one clear cut message to the everyday world because it IS a complicated and complex issue. If you were to talk about an atom to someone, you can't just tell them about protons and ignore the neutrons and electrons. That's why its really hard to have one issue be at the forefront. One issue leads into the next issue which leads into the next.....and so on.
One of the reasons people are so confused in our society is because everything is specialized and packaged into perfect packages. But this stifles development. Schools segment time slots for specific subjects with different teachers. Children never learn that all subjects are inter connected and are literally one science-philosophy. Therefore, most never learn the big picture.
I probably didn' contribute anything useful, but I will sum it up this way... the ONE message would be to stop manipulation of the freedom and livelihoods of the world's population. Other than that, it would be hard to package the complex issues into one.

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p.s.
by Jan Friday, Sep. 12, 2003 at 8:50 PM

I also wanted to add that one of the things I like most about the marches/rallies are the variety of information I can get on many different topics.

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