community-based, non-corporate, participatory media
Does Ashcroft Dream of Surveilling Electric Sheep?
by Quinten
Monday, Sep. 22, 2003 at 2:51 PM
quinten@indypgh.org
Three dozen participated in a hastily-organized protest of John Ashcroft today despite a heavy rain. Ashcroft was speaking at the Marriot at Chatham Center to defend the USA PATRIOT Act to a group of local law enforcement officials. His arrival was delayed briefly because of a suspicious package that turned out to be harmless. Ashcroft, on a tour to defend the heavily criticized bill, also visited <a href="http://mke.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=3950">Milwaukee</a> today.
repeal.jpg, image/jpeg, 640x480
Lecture
by Quinten
Monday, Sep. 22, 2003 at 2:51 PM
quinten@indypgh.org
lecture.jpgbxaj8m.jpg, image/jpeg, 639x496
The protestors were told by this security guard to move away from the Marriot to the sidewalk.
Crowd
by Quinten
Monday, Sep. 22, 2003 at 2:51 PM
quinten@indypgh.org
crowd1.jpg, image/jpeg, 640x648
Taking it to the Streets
by Quinten
Monday, Sep. 22, 2003 at 2:51 PM
quinten@indypgh.org
Impeach Tree
by Quinten
Monday, Sep. 22, 2003 at 2:51 PM
quinten@indypgh.org
impeachtree.jpg, image/jpeg, 480x640
Ignorance = Strength
by Quinten
Monday, Sep. 22, 2003 at 2:51 PM
quinten@indypgh.org
ignorance_eq_strength.jpg, image/jpeg, 640x853
Ashcroft
by Quinten
Monday, Sep. 22, 2003 at 2:51 PM
quinten@indypgh.org
ashcroft-tail.jpg, image/jpeg, 640x375
You can see the tail end of his mini motor-cade here.
Do The Math
by counter
Tuesday, Sep. 23, 2003 at 7:16 AM
Greater Pittsburgh Metro Area Population - 2.4 million
Number of protesters - "Three dozen participated" (36)
36 divided by 2,400,000 = 0.000015% of population
(That's 15 one-millionth of the population)
Oh, I know.
1) It was an inconvienent time of the day,
2) They kept his coming hidden from the public,
3) the weather was bad,
4) Every protester represented thousands upon thousands who couldn't make it.
I'm sure you've got some more........
Excuses, excuses, excuses.
But, at least you're fun to laugh at. Boy, you showed him. Good job! Way to go!
Leftists Can't Do Math
by 2beers
Tuesday, Sep. 23, 2003 at 7:40 AM
Oh yes, it is a groundswell of support and protest from the common man, the working man, the man/womyn who would have no voice at all except for the perpetual struggle of that fifteen-one-millionth that has the courage to make a difference. HA!!! I believe that fifteen-one-millionth qualifies as something less than a rounding error in any sampling. Keep up the struggle holding on at the fringe of society.
Voodoo Statistics
by 11waters
Tuesday, Sep. 23, 2003 at 7:53 AM
What percentage of the population are unemployed cops who spam indymedia?
Math
by c.
Tuesday, Sep. 23, 2003 at 10:13 AM
Maybe it is a fringe opinion...
Maybe it was the wrong time of day...
Maybe nobody cares...
Then Again:
What percentage of people supported the American Revolution?
How many people showed up to the first few anti-war protests?
Everything has a starting point.
gamble
by bet
Tuesday, Sep. 23, 2003 at 11:25 AM
Odd are it's a fringe group and no one cares.
As long as you stay outta my neighbor, go to it.
Bet
by get a job piggie
Tuesday, Sep. 23, 2003 at 11:28 AM
What's this about getting into your neighbor? Is that some sexy comment?
wow
by wow
Tuesday, Sep. 23, 2003 at 12:03 PM
--What percentage of people supported the American Revolution?--
After 40 years of demonstrating against the status-quo, you got 36 people out to demonstrate Ashcroft. Let's take on the British.
Fear and Foment
by BraveNewWorldOrderFighter
Tuesday, Sep. 23, 2003 at 12:41 PM
I would venture to guess that people might not wish to have their names and faces recorded by The Powers That Be for future reference. (Of course, in my case, that's a moot point.)
The people in charge of the world are the bankers. The "media" are their shills.
We are the sheep.
Baa.
Do The Math
by counter
Tuesday, Sep. 23, 2003 at 1:52 PM
>I'm sure you've got some more........
5) People might not wish to have their names and faces recorded by The Powers That Be for future reference.
Who's got excuse #6?
That's a good one
by 2beers
Tuesday, Sep. 23, 2003 at 2:15 PM
"people might not want their names and faces recorded" presumably because bankers will see them??? This strange use of a need for anominity to justify a general lack of public interest in these inane protests is...well, inane. Especially form the likes of NWOF and the rest of the vocal minority that is forever discounting anyone else around here that posts anonimously.
How about these for the list:
#6 No one real gives a flying flip about these "protests"
#7 The message of the protests is so confused that it is a useless exercise in affecting anything other than bad street theater
#8 the Protest organizers have such a myopic view of the world and the issues that they alienate anyone else that might even slightly agree with them
#9 It really is the far far fringes of society that participate in this street theater/protest stuff and there really are not that many of them.
#10 the people who organize and attend these things are people that not a lot of other people really want to hang out with.
#11 The other 99.000085% of the population had to go home and organize their sock drawers that day.
#12 That is the brilliance of our diversity of tactics. if we make John Ashcroft think that we are not really a huge cadre of rebelious serfs, then we have the element of surprise on our side when we ultimately rise up and take over.
#13 We ran out of construction paper and crayons after the last protest, which had thousands of people (you should have been at that one), and so everyone wouldn't have a nice poster to display and we didn't want anyone to feel like someone else was getting special treatment at the protest.
#14 The kid in the suit was really a banker spy and we all knew that so that kept the masterminds away.
#15 John Ashcraft had all of the thousands of protesters that were on their way to the rally arrested and thrown in a FEMA detention Camp near Columbus.
the video is a better one
by terrorist too
Tuesday, Sep. 23, 2003 at 3:22 PM
especially the part where the drowned rat looking hippy chippes chant on about genetically modified veggies being the equivalent of murdering terrorists with suicide jets and bombs. Talk about not having a clue.
Or the part where the womyn says that she is protesting because she wasn't invited to be in the room with the law enforcement officials that JA was in town to meet. So she has a bee in her bonnet because she didn't get an invite to the party?
All you need to do is watch the video and that picture is worth a 1,000 reasons why these mutual admiration fests of the left are so well attended.
Pittsburgh Population
by whocares
Tuesday, Sep. 23, 2003 at 4:00 PM
the greater pittsburgh area has about 1.1 million people by the way not 2.4 million. also, the city itself has a population of 334,000 people so that's the numbers. talk about distortion of facts! this event by JA wasn't known to most people, even those of us in the loop so to speak, and the weather was in fact shitty and probably discouraged many from attending. Also, the Patriot Act opposition has the most potential i'd say since people on both the left AND the right oppose it.
Numbers?
by Wait a second...
Tuesday, Sep. 23, 2003 at 4:47 PM
So, wait a second, now the right-wing wishes to talk numbers? They are all about what percentages of people share an opinion on how they should be governed. What percentage of people in this country, forget about just Pittsburgh, supported your president by voting for him? What about the Democratic candidate? But wait, before you go blowing your wad lecturing about the electoral college or whatever other reason you can come up with as to why popular opinion doesn't really count in this case, go over your comments about regarding numbers. Yeah, I thought so, numbers aren't everything huh?
Get your shit together kids. Your inflamatory responses don't really promote your side of things too well, and neither does using fuzzy math and the guise of percentages of public support hold when your president was appointed by the courts contrary to what the public opinion really wanted.
But thanks for the laughs! When are you going to try your hand at poetry again 2beers, or is that Nicholas Bielich I smell?
Grow up...
by A moderate person
Tuesday, Sep. 23, 2003 at 5:19 PM
I'm going to have to agree with "whocares" on one thing, though...you don't have to be radically "leftist" to disagree with the Patriot Act. In fact, I consider myself leaning a slight hint to the left, metaphorically, and know many, many moderate right and left wing people who also have a problem with the Patriot Act. Did they show up to this protest? Obviously not. Was it the word about the protest not particularly wide-spread and was it at in inconvenient time? Yes. Come on, people, don't fight over trivialities and just piss each other off...think, read, and learn for yourself. Make up your own mind instead of just going with the dominant rhetoric of "left" or "right" or whatever. If you want to debate the issues, go right ahead, but stop the name calling and mud-slinging for goodness sake.
last minute event
by me
Tuesday, Sep. 23, 2003 at 6:06 PM
This was a last minute event, and I didn't even hear about it until today. That would be probably why hardly anyone showed up. And again, the rain.
The Patriot Act allows law enforcement to look up private records without anyone's consent. A few months ago they were looking into Carnegie Library's records without the consent of CLP's. So CLP began to throw out and erase old records because they didn't agree with this breach of privacy.
This was documented in the City Paper and the Post Gazette. Call your local library if you don't believe it.
NOW WHY WOULD THEY CARE TO LOOK UP WHAT BOOKS YOU BORROWED FROM THE LIBRARY???
On protests
by Quinten
Tuesday, Sep. 23, 2003 at 7:36 PM
I would agree that protests are not equally inviting to the left and the right, and you do tend to get the same crowd of people to show up to every event - basically the people who showed up comprised about half of the dedicated "protest corp" in Pittsburgh. So, considering that in combination with the less than 24 hours notice, I was pleasantly surprised to see some right-leaning libertarians that I know show up to this event. These same libertarians constantly carp about the left and the uselessness of protests.
But numbers are really not important for every protest. Sometimes you need thousands of people to make your message. But some of the most powerful protests that I know involved just a handful of people. The Catholic Workers pouring bottles of their own blood on nuclear warheads is just one example. Mohandas Gandhi burning his pass card in South Africa is another.
Patriots Act
by Ewan Kenkesmearse
Wednesday, Sep. 24, 2003 at 3:06 AM
The Patriot Act is something that more people should have protested. It represents a significant assault on the civil liberties and privacy of every American. Although it was not the Republicans who firs set this legislation into motion, and prior incarnations of the law were proposed by Democrats during the Clinton Administration (often under the guise of gun control or domestic terrorism a la Timothy McVeigh), it is John Ashcroft who now has the power. Freedom of speech is threatened by the strong arm provisions of the Act. It is true that we need some very strong laws to help in the fight against terrorism, and it is also true that must of the provisions of the Patriot Act are powers that law enforcement in most other countries already have, but this is America. Do we really want to be like the French, were even the mere possession of a copy of Mien Kampf could get you in trouble. Now I am no fan of Adolph Hitler, but if you want to read his delusional rantings that is (or should be ) your right). And we are not like Britain were the mere discussion of the IRA in a London Pub could have you locked away for an indefinite period of time with out access to legal help or even any formal charges being brought. This is America, and if you want to talk about, read about, belong to, the IRA or any other political group for that matter, then that is your right. The minute your participation turns to blowing up a Federal building or hijacking a plane, then that is when you have broken the law. Our civil liberties are far more sacred than the right of some nameless law enforcement official to develop their �professional� suspicion that you are reading harmful terrorist materials, the Turner Diaries, or the Satanic Verses. Our civil liberties can not be infringed by such far reaching laws. We can not allow anyone individual or elite group to determine what speech is acceptable.
Numbers & Excuses
by counter
Wednesday, Sep. 24, 2003 at 4:33 AM
>the greater pittsburgh area has about 1.1 million people by the way not 2.4 million.
FALSE.
http://www.fairus.org/html/msas/042papit.htm
Population 2001 CB est. - 2,347,163
http://www.post-gazette.com/census/20030430census0430p1.asp
Population July 2002 - 2,346,525
1.1 million?!? Talk about distortion of facts!
----------------------------------------------------------
>What percentage of people in this country, forget about just Pittsburgh, supported your president by voting for him?
Enough to get him elected. That's right. The recounts done by the media in Florida showed Bush winning everytime.
You people have one playbook and one play, and you're not that good at running the one you do have.
>Numbers aren't everything huh?
They are in your case, because opposition to Bush policies are not counted in electoral college votes, but numbers of people. In this case, 36.
>this event by JA wasn't known to most people (excuse #2)
>the weather was in fact shitty (excuse #3)
>Was it the word about the protest not particularly wide-spread and was it at in inconvenient time? Yes. (excuse #2, again)
>This was a last minute event, and I didn't even hear about it until today. (excuse #2, again)
>And again, the rain. (excuse #3, again)
>basically the people who showed up comprised about half of the dedicated "protest corp" in Pittsburgh. (excuse #4, [finally a new one])
>considering that in combination with the less than 24 hours notice (oops, excuse #2, again)
>But numbers are really not important for every protest. But some of the most powerful protests that I know involved just a handful of people. (excuse #12, sorta)
Com'n! You wingnuts can do better than that. Try a little harder at making up your excuses than you do about protesting will ya. At least you know about this, and it's not raining in your computer room. Or is it?
Patriot Act Is Less Oppressive Than Democrats
by F. Castro
Wednesday, Sep. 24, 2003 at 5:31 AM
who want to restrict our every right and freedom. Like not allowing us to smoke in bars, like concocting ridiculous lawsuits that fast food is the root of all evil, and on and on. The Patriot Act is no different than the authorities checking into whether or not you smoke (or ever have smoked) when making child custody decisions, or health insurance companies asking whether or not you own a gun. They could also be checking on whether I bought a pack of smokes at the newsstand or subscribe to Shotgun News. But of course you leftist whiners don't give a crap about that because it doesnt fit your view of how everyone should live. But if JA wants to check the subscriber lists of Socialist Worker or this website then there will be Jihad.
pittsburgh population
by whocares
Wednesday, Sep. 24, 2003 at 7:51 AM
ok when i think of pittsburgh area, i count allegheny county, which does have 1.1 million people and the city itself does have 334,000. that article u posted as evidence cites the "six-county region" which is absurd. how the hell are 6 counties pittsburgh area. so we just classified pittsburgh area in different terms. your terms encompassed like half the state.
either way this doesn't mean anything and i normally don't post on these cuz petty bickering is dumb and i know what i believe.
I don't need anyone to tell me. By the way, i'm no fan of the socialist worker's party
Population
by .
Wednesday, Sep. 24, 2003 at 9:08 AM
Three different levels
City of Pittsburgh
Allegheny County
(Census 2000) Metropolitan Statistical Area - six counties
(2003) MSA - seven counties
These definitions change all the time and are somewhat arbitrary.
Bottom Line
by protester
Wednesday, Sep. 24, 2003 at 10:21 AM
There was a minimum of 2.4 million within driving range of Pittsburgh. Only about 36 showed. We gotta start doing better.
It is still a feeble showing
by counter -2
Wednesday, Sep. 24, 2003 at 10:41 AM
so we are arguing over whether there was 15-one-millionths or 30-one-millionths of the population showing up for a protest. As if one is more significant than the other. the original statement is still valid. It was a lousy showing and demonstrates pretty well the level of general (total population) apathy and activist apathy. Especially when you consider it was pretty much the same protest faithful the comprised the majority of the feeble group. Fuck, I think we may have a larger percentage of the population spamming and heckling here at the IMC website than we can get to show up for a protest.
Reformists
by bad protester
Wednesday, Sep. 24, 2003 at 10:54 AM
I stayed home, since the problem is not that Mullah Ashcroft is Attorney General, the problem is that the office of Attorney General exists.
Mook
by Tony T.
Wednesday, Sep. 24, 2003 at 11:38 AM
I can't understand what everyone is so upset about. We never did have any real right to privacy or private property. If your not a terrorist, you have nothing to worry about. I could see if they were detaining innocent people for speech that they don't like, but they are not. As far as detaining people indefinatly whose visa's are expired - who cares? They really should play by the rules or get out. If you were in France and your visa expired, believe me, they will detain you in the post 9/11 world. I have a friend who was picked up in Paris because he was wearing a T-Shirt that said "i'm a terrorist" in french. He let his visa lapse and was detained for 8 months! Face it people, there isn't any freedom anywhere. That is why I go to work and then go home. What are you going to do?
crazy
by jan
Wednesday, Sep. 24, 2003 at 4:38 PM
I think its nuts not be angry at the Patriot Act! It basically throws out all the freedoms they tell us we have.
But of course
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who believe they are free."
-Johann W. V. Goethe
Insane
by John Bhyttmasschroff
Thursday, Sep. 25, 2003 at 6:42 PM
"Yeah? Fuck you"
-- Sid Vicious
![[masthead]](/images/masthead_140.png)
