community-based, non-corporate, participatory media
Carnegie Mellon Students express Palestinian Solidarity
by zucchini
Thursday, Sep. 25, 2003 at 10:40 AM
On the night of 9-21-2001, a group of Carnegie Mellon students came together and painted a message of Palestinian solidarity on the fence, a tradition used by Carnegie Mellon students and groups to send messages to the entire campus.
fence.jpg, image/jpeg, 1058x256
The idea hit some of us last spring working with Zi. We organized along very rough lines, in an organization of little structure. Some of us were members of the Progressive Student Alliance, others were the Arab Student Organization or Muslim Students Association. We headed out and took the fence.
The reaction to the fence has been bittersweet. Some have criticized us, others have engaged us in debate. We highlighted Palestinian suffering because in the country that sponsors it, few know about it. Marking the anniversary of Sabra & Shatila, calling for human rights for Palestinians including an end to the occupation, and calling for the recognition of Sharon as a war criminal were the messages on the fence. We hope that the issue of Palestinian suffering will remain on the agenda until the problems are resolved.
The text reads "HUMAN RIGHTS AND JUSTICE FOR PALESTINANS / END THE OCCUPATION" on the side visible from the street and "BRING SHARON TO JUSTICE FOR THE VICTIMS OF SABRA AND SHATILA" on the other.
Working on the fence
by zucchini
Thursday, Sep. 25, 2003 at 10:40 AM
ANTI-APARTHEID WALL SOLIDARITY ROCKS
by JONAS
Thursday, Sep. 25, 2003 at 7:41 PM
wall3.jpg, image/jpeg, 525x700
Thanks Zi! I love all of you.
I have definitely come under scrutiny also for making heard the voice of the Palestinians; for presenting to the brain-washed public (by the corporate media) the truths behind the illegal, brutal occupation of Palestinians and their rightful land, for speaking out against the fascist, racist government/regime of Sharon's Israel and those of the past,
for helping small refugee children in their refugee camps, reassuring them that we will convey their word to the American public and abroad.
After spending 40 days in Palestine and Israel- I have learned a few things-- for instance; 1.) No, Palestinians aren't all suicide bombers and against democracy as many Zionists have stated and believe; 2.) No, Israel really isn't the only democracy in the Middle East-- because it isn't a democracy; 3.) internationals are welcome and very much needed in the occupied territories to prevent (inshallah) the israeli army from commiting atrocious acts against the indiginous peoples -- so please, try and go; 4.)too many other things to get into now but would love to at a later point--- (i'll keep you informed of when and where).
So, thanks again Zi and everyone who participated for spreading the word-- opening the eyes of ignorat folk and non-believers-- even amidst scrutiny and false accusations.
<the picture is of ISM (international solidarity movement) activist and myself painting the palestinian flag on the racist separation barrier in qalqilia, west bank>
Two State Solution
by I vs. P
Friday, Sep. 26, 2003 at 5:11 AM
Here's how the two state solution should work.
Isreal and Palestine define the border. Israel builds a wall all the way around its borders to protest itself from Islamic militants who want to kill them. No pro-Palestinian militants in Israel. No IDF in Palestine.
The US should continue to fund Israel. The US should offer no asistance to the Palestinians. Let the oil rich Arab nations around them give them money if they need it.
Now, you have two soverign states. It will be up to the Palestinian leadership to prevent their militants from attacking Israel and its citizens.
Prediction:
Here's where the rub comes into play. The Palestinian government will not be able to prevent its militants from attacking Israel. These militants will find ways to lauch rockets, etc... over the wall. The "world community" will not be able to blame Israel for anything, seeing that Israel does not have any soldiers in Palestine. It will be crystal clear that the aggressors are the Palestinians and the militants within their borders. After repeatedly warning the Palestinian government to either stop these militants or Israel will come in and do it for them, Palestine will not either try to or won't be able to stop the attacks. Israel will roll in and take over the territory.
the arabs states won't fund a sovereign state
by Camel Lips
Friday, Sep. 26, 2003 at 7:27 AM
The arab nations only send money to Palestine so long as the Palestinians are blowing up their children to kill Jews and other infidels. Once that ends so does the flow of money. And if Arafat actually was willing to let that cash go to a national government .....
OPEN THOSE CLOSED EYES
by JONAS
Friday, Sep. 26, 2003 at 7:35 AM
download PDF (159.7 kibibytes)
"Here's how the two state solution should work.
Isreal and Palestine define the border. Israel builds a wall all the way around its borders to protest itself from Islamic militants who want to kill them. No pro-Palestinian militants in Israel. No IDF in Palestine."
****Keep in mind friend, what the Apartheid wall is actually doing, what it has done, and most likely, what it will continue to do: The Wall has already stolen an abundant amount of dunams of farmland and is continuing to do so in villages such as Baca- Sharqia and Qalqilia where they are now building a secondary wall on the INSIDE of the primary wall, confiscating even more land, and will continue to do so. This obviously wont make very many Palestinians happy, and possibly paves the way for future attacks. The wall already sections the West Bank off into 4 ghettos, whereas the inhabitants of the land cannot move freely within the terrirtories to visit family, sell produce, get to work or the hospital, etc etc. And it completely snakes around villages like Qalqilia, creating a massive open air prison, no way in or out except thru the checkpoint, which most of the time attempt to cross proves to be fruitless, refused at the border. And you left out a crucial element of this equation-- the illegal settlements. These settlements have been constructed on stolen land, agricultural mostly-- the wall is strategically placed around these areas in the west bank, sometimes capturing Palestinian villages within them, preventing Palestinians from movement, especially to their farmland, where numerous times the illegal settlers shhot to kill the farmers, not to mention theft of their produce. Israel is extremely unlikely to dismantle these settlements, (as shown during the hudna when settlement expansion was supposed to halt but only increased during the cease-fire), and refusing to dismantle these settlements means, obviously, not a total withdrawal of IOF sodiers (as you suggest). Then If there are no IOF soldiers in Palestine as you suggest, this brings me to my next point...:
"The US should continue to fund Israel..."
*There would be little to no need to fund Israel. The assistance Israel receives from the US goes directly to military products: Apache helicopters, concussion grenades, guns, ammunition... and then some gets rerouted to the construction of the wall-- whats the need to assist this racist regime if there are no IOF soldiers in the territories and the wall is built?
*Under these conditions, as you suggest, 2 soverign states are not possible-- 1 is obviosuly still in charge, using state terror to acheive their goals with the support of the US of A, and the other is still supressed, oppressed-- and forgotten.
*I wish one day 2 states could finalize itself into the region, but not under those conditions.
Salaam
JONAS
by I vs. P
Friday, Sep. 26, 2003 at 10:33 AM
Under what I proposed, Palestine and Israel would have agreed upon defined borders. It is that border where the wall would be built. The issue of the settlements, etc.... would have already been negotiated and resolved.
I would continue to support any US aid that Israel would need. I would not support any assistance for the Palestinian state. Let them get their assistance from their Arab neighbors.
Israel would not be in "charge" of the state of Palestine. Where do you get that? Palestine would have it's own governing body. No IDF soldiers would even be in Palestine. Israel would have no "goals to achieve" there.
Why would Palestine be "supressed, oppressed-- and forgotten"? They would have their ultra-rich Arab neighbors and brothers to help them.
You need to explain yourself.
My Solution
by Max
Friday, Sep. 26, 2003 at 11:55 AM
“Aid” includes military help – and one thing Palestine needs is a military comparable to the IDF, and the US could help them with this as it has helped Israel. If Palestinians get a strong military, Israel won’t just be able to trample over them, and Palestinians wouldn’t need to use less sophisticated means like suicide bombings since they too would have Apache helicopters and F15’s. I am not sure Arab countries have the ability to help Palestine create a powerful military. Basically, if both countries have equally strong military forces, they would both be more careful about their actions and they would both be willing to come to a peaceful agreement about their borders quickly because if they don’t, there’s a chance of all-out war, which nobody wants. But of course, before Palestinians get a military, they need food, medicine, and the basics. If Arab countries aren’t helping Palestinians with this to the best of their ability, they should. If they are helping Palestine to the best of their ability, clearly it’s not enough and Palestinians need US aid too. And the US, as a fair and neutral broker (at least we pretend to be) should help both Israel and Palestine equally.
As a taxpaying American, I’d rather see most of my money go to Palestinians than to Israel at the present time since clearly, Palestinians need it more to build roads and clinics and schools and a strong military. Palestinians need financial help, administrative help, technological aid, etc. I’m going to write to my congressman to complain about my tax dollars being used to sponsor illegal Israeli settlements, the wall, Israeli-imposed “curfews”, cantonization of the West Bank, and the other things Israel has done to Palestine, while ignoring Palestine’s need for roads, medical aid, education, a military, etc. Hopefully, my congressman won’t say “all Palestinians are suicide bombers so we’re not going to sponsor them.” I honestly believe Palestine has (a lot of) people that aren’t dedicated suicide bombers, whom, if given the right kind of financial assistance, direction, and military help, will be able to create a more viable state.
Max
by pgh
Friday, Sep. 26, 2003 at 12:14 PM
I agree with you, "I vs P".
With defined borders, Israel would have no reason to attack Palestine unless Palestine could not control its militants. Israel could roll right now and take over the oil wells in Saudi Arabia. Who in the area could stop them? No one. But do they because they can? No. Israel has show retratint. Remember 1991? They didn't attack Saddam when they were being hit with Scud Missles.
No funding of any kind to Palestinians.
The Arabs have more than the ability. They are extremely rich countries.
Being a taxpaying American is not enough to have a say. People who are activists generally don't have two nickels to rub together. I probably pay more in taxes than you make a year. It's people like me who get to say, not second-class citizens you.
No money for Palestine.
But the Palestinians only want peace...
by BombSquad
Friday, Sep. 26, 2003 at 12:56 PM
JERUSALEM 09-26-03 -- A Palestinian attacked a Jewish settlement in the West Bank on Friday night, killing two Israelis, one of them an infant, before he was killed, emergency workers said.
Two others were also wounded in the attack, said Dror Richter, spokesman for Israel's ambulance services.
The attack, on the settlement of Negahot, near the West Bank city of Hebron, came as Israelis began celebrating the two-day Jewish New Year of Rosh Hashana on Friday evening.
The baby was hospitalized in critical condition but later died of its wounds, emergency officials said.
Holiday celebrations across Israel were marked by heavy security, with thousands of officers deployed at synagogues, parks and intersections to try to prevent attacks by Palestinian militants.
_____________________
Yassar Arafat won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1994.
get real max
by JONAS
Friday, Sep. 26, 2003 at 1:31 PM
..."Being a taxpaying American is not enough to have a say. People who are activists generally don't have two nickels to rub together. I probably pay more in taxes than you make a year. It's people like me who get to say, not second-class citizens you..."
Second class? Ha. I guess 3 years as a paramedic making double what my mother makes in salary deems me a second class citizen. Raising money myself to visit Palestine/Israel to exactly whats going on, (opposed to sitting in front of the tele watching FoxNews or CNN)-- going there with an unbias mind and seeing the atrocities the Palestinians are facing. Seriously, unless youve been there, living under the gun, you wouldn't understand. Try going Mr or Mrs First Class, and then let's talk. And we can meet with our W2's and compare who paid what . Comments like yours are what prevents dialogue, prejudging and categorizing us peace activists as second class. Get real.
Mature.
But whose gun??
by BombSquad
Friday, Sep. 26, 2003 at 1:42 PM
Living under the gun yes. But it is the gun of a Palestinian (HAMAS, PLO, Arafat, et al) that they are living under. The Isrealis are not the aggressors. The Palestinians can not stand there continuously sticking their collective dirty thumb in the eyes of the Isrealis the whole time saying that they are not sticking their collective dirty thumb in the eye of the Isrealis.
Go back to Palestine. They need a good paramedic to drive the ambulance. Especially when they are hiding a young kid in the back faking an injury to kill the Isrealis who may show mercy and try to assist. So with that sort of thing going on by the Hamas murders you can not complain AT ALL if the Isrealis feel the need to be more cautious.
NOT THE AGGRESSORS?
by JONAS
Friday, Sep. 26, 2003 at 2:30 PM
baka_sharkia_023.jpg, image/jpeg, 636x480
LEFT: ISRAELI BULLDOZER
RIGHT: 87 YEAR OLD PALESTINIAN FARMER
SCENE: ISRAELI BULLDOZER CONFISCATED 87 Y/O FARMER'S LAND AS HE WATCHES BY, HELPLESSLY. THIS IS THE FARMER'S SECOND BATCH OF LAND THAT HAS BEEN CONFISCATED BY THE ISRAELIS SINCE 1948 WHEN HE FIRST WAS PUSHED FROM HIS LAND IN HAIFA.
"The Isrealis are not the aggressors."
SEEMS IRONIC IN COMPARISON TO THIS SCENERIO.
JONAS
by pgh
Friday, Sep. 26, 2003 at 5:41 PM
Pay attention to who's spitting on you. MORON.
A paramedic. Whoo-hoo! I bet you make all of $40K/yr. That's nice. Multiply that times ten. I make more than that a month.
No, those of you that are serfdom don't get to decide. People like me get to decide, the top 1% wage earners in the country. Money talks, bullshit walks.
No money for Palestinians. These people are nothing more than human debris. Genocide would be too good for them.
Sharon is THE criminal
by Nadeem Al-Atheem
Saturday, Sep. 27, 2003 at 12:30 AM
I support those CM students who painted the fence in support of the Palestinian plight. Let it be known to the whole world that the United States of America does in fact sponser terrorism every time it send foreign aid to the so called nation of "israel". Sharon is a war criminal and deserves to be tried in international court for his crimes in Sabra, Shatilla, and the current Intifada. The right of return is not something to be decided upon...it is something that should and will happen without question. Palestine will be free...from the river to the sea! LONG LIVE PALESTINE!!!
Keep off the Grass
by Yassar Datsmibebe
Saturday, Sep. 27, 2003 at 6:25 AM
LEFT: BULLDOVER
RIGHT: 87 YEAR OLD RECIDIVIST TRESPASSER
PHOTO OP: URBAN RENEWAL REQUIRED BY PLO/HAMAS.
Let's understand this.......Yassar Arafat has children strap on bombs and walk into crowded venues of Israeli citizens (many of them geriatrics like our unfortunate agrarian Arab trespasser friend above), and then proceed to kill everyone in the room including the even more unfortunate young Arab who has been bartered so callously for the political fortunes of Arafat and his cowardly cronies.
So the tilling over of the bean patch of an 87 year old farmer is morally and politically a far greater tragedy than the repetitive murder of Israeli senior citizens? Or are you suggesting that you support (or at least are implicit by refusing to condemn in the most active and harshest of terms and actions) the murderous response of Arafat's Palestinian's to Israeli self-defense and periodic land disputes? And even if we forget about the geriatrics in this affair, what about the murder of innocent civilians of all ages that is brought upon by the suicide jihadists from Mr. Arafat's stable of Palestinian slaves.
The only oppressor here is Arafat and the rest of the Arab world that find this conduct acceptable and desirable. And you for that matter by supporting this tragic circumstance with apologies and rationalizations for terrorist responses. Face up to it, the Palestinian people have become the field slaves and prison bitches of the Arab master class that wants only to use Arafat's personal war as the proxy for all Arab/Western conflict. Of all the wealth in the Arab world countries like Saudi Arabia, Syria, (the former) Iraq, and others choose to spend financial resources to support terrorists. They do not give to support jobs programs. They do not build infrastructure. They do not provide self-policing efforts to keep their own citizenry free from the brutality meted out by the PLO and HAMAS against Arabs that show any interest in negotiating and understanding with the West and Israeli. They give to support the proliferation of the ignorance and hatred of the Palestinian and Islamist terrorists.
Palestine (and most other Arab nations for that matter) could have the most productive economies in the world. But they choose not to better the lives of their own people. These countries could invest in Universities, infrastructure, technology, etc. But they don't. Their priority seems to be the promotion of a life that breeds hatred and teaches to respect the murder of "infidels" (read- Jews and Americans). Where is the Arab Bill Gates? Where is the Arab Andrew Carnegie? Where is the Arab Ghandi? Where is the Arab JFK? Where is the Arab General Patton, General Eisenhower? Hell, show me an Arab Rommel for that matter? Where is the Arab Ben & Jerry? Where is the Arab society that does not oppress its own, that does not practice stoning and selective dismemberment for any host of crimes of little or no consequence? Where is the Western society that practices Honor killing (and even though you may see it on the Sopranos it is still a crime).
The Palestinians are condemned to their hell by their own leaders. The Israelis are condemned to hell by virtue of geography. Terrorist events in Israel are daily occurrences. These are the risks of going to the market, the school, the cafe, the park or any other daily event. You can cling to you anecdotal and tragic tales of some poor child that has been the victim of circumstance created by the Palestinian leaders, but this is not at all the same as the terrorist attacks on the Israeli people. Thanks to the terrorist organizations using the Palestinian people as shields, as cover for their bomb labs, they have placed these innocents in harms way.
If the Palestinians would seriously try just ONCE to put aside their murder and hatred they may finally enjoy the peace that you want us to believe Arafat wants for his people. Why is it that every time some moderate Palestinian leader attempts to buy some negotiating time or room that HAMAS and the PLO and other terrorist groups immediately announce that they will not be party to any moderate attempts to resolve the matter. Instead they are quick to step up their terrorist attacks. And you have the nerve (or ignorance) to suggest that the Israelis should be more trusting, they should try again?
I urge you to return to Palestine many more times. I also urge you to publicly, actively and strenuously denounce the terrorism and work to open dialogue. DO not get trapped (as Arafat hopes you and other Western supports will) in the mire of the photos of the hopeless faces of harmless looking farmers and children in the unfortunate circumstances that you want always to lay at the doorstep of Israel and America. Point out the photos (or go and get them) of the terrorist training organizations, the children (looking equally hopeless) learning how to make and use the apparatus of human ordnance. Return to America and demonstrate that you have grown in wisdom and understanding and are prepared to have those most difficult conversations with your Palestinian friends and their political leaders. You want the Israeli (or in your mind American Zionist) bulldozers to get back to building Palestinian roads and office towers? Then STOP the terrorism. Give Israel no reason for its (at times heavy-handed) domestic self-defense. At that very moment, the bulldozers will return to providing the infrastructure that Palestine needs to be a productive nation (the first step to its own statehood).
But the American supporters of the Palestinian hate machine want only to stick it to American and its friends. Their position has nothing to do with Palestinian rights. It has more to do with fashion. The human rights violations of the British against the Irish nationalist was a much more identifiable crime than your plight, and where were your fashionable children of the finest of American educational institutions. Where were they while young and old Irish nationalist were rotting away in the H-Blocks without even having charges filed against them (for years)? Your referenced website above sells T-Shirts with a picture of a bullet with the caption �Israeli Crowd Control� but I never saw a shirt that had a picture of a plastic bullet captioned �The Queen�s Crowd Control�. I also have not yet seen a T-Shirt of an exploding Palestinian teenage �martyr� captioned �Palestinian Racial Control� (although it would be more appropriate than the Palestinian version of the shirt).
Where are the cafes full of young Jewish (or as you might say �Zionist�) men and women in places like Squirrel Hill discussing their support for the unfortunate death of the Palestinian child returning from the store (that you refer to above)? But I have been in the avant-garde cafes around town and overheard the �fashionable� leftist youngsters discussing their support for the �martyr� the so �bravely� died while murdering a bus full of children and women. There in lies the fundamental difference in this debate that you want to ignore.
Shalom.
GREAT JOB
by Ammu Shouki
Saturday, Sep. 27, 2003 at 8:24 AM
kassis25@aol.com
Salma,
You did great job. Of course you will get critisised for the good job in a country whose admenistration practices whole sale terrorism and still get high approval rate.
Shouki
Re: Two State Solution
by Sam
Saturday, Sep. 27, 2003 at 8:27 AM
A two-state solution would never work, but not for the reasons you stated. Israel and the Occupied Territories form a natural economic unit. Any ostensibly sovereign Palestinian state would be economically dependent on Israel, resulting in nothing more than a bantustan.
It's also worth noting that no Israeli government has so far truly accepted the two-state solution. At most, they're willing to accept a "state" intercepted by Jewish-only roads, checkpoints, etc., with Israeli control of water and other vital resources.
Only a one-state solution would work. One secular, democratic state encompassing the area currently comprising Israel and the Occupied Territories, guaranteeing equality for all citizens.
Another thing re: Two State Solution
by Sam
Saturday, Sep. 27, 2003 at 8:32 AM
The "two state solution" as you've proposed wouldn't, as you suggest, set the Palestinians up as "the aggressors".
A sovereign Palestine will be able to stop the vast majority of attacks on Israel, but it will never be able to stop all of them. Israel can't do that now, even with the 4th most powerful military in the world.
Re: Max
by Sam
Saturday, Sep. 27, 2003 at 8:40 AM
The reason Israel didn't attack Saddam in 1991 was because it could have meant all the Arab states taking the side of Iraq.
And the obvious reason Israel doesn't invade Saudi Arabia is that Saudi Arabia is a U.S. ally.
But Israel has been attacking Lebanon (with imperialistic aims) both by itself and by proxy since the late 1970s. A notice how now, Israel is clamoring for an invasion of Iran and Syria.
More Re: Max
by Sam
Saturday, Sep. 27, 2003 at 8:45 AM
I have mixed feelings over whether or not the U.S. should fund an independent Palestine. But it's certainly not in the interest of Palestine to accept aid from the Arab countries, if the really want a democracy.
Secondly, your stereotyping of "activists" (I hate that word -- it implies that those involved in political agitation are separate from everyone else) really doesn't match reality. A great number of activists are (unfortunately, IMO) middle class.
Re: But the Palestinians only want peace...
by Sam
Saturday, Sep. 27, 2003 at 8:51 AM
Israeli atrocities are numerous and well-documented by Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, B'Tselem, Physicians for Human Rights, the Red Cross/Red Crescent, and the UN.
Three Palestinians are killed for everyone one Israeli. 40 Palestinians are hospitalized for every Israeli wounded. 80 percent of Palestinians killed since September 2000 have not taken up arms against Israel, and were not connected with terrorist groups.
Yasser Arafat, corrupt though he may be, has nothing to do with Palestinian terrorism. He has repeatedly condemned such acts in both Arabic and English. His administration has imprisoned members of Hamas and Islamic Jihad and intercepted their funding. I challenge anyone to present me with any evidence of Arafat's personal sponsorship of terrorism since Oslo.
Re: But whose gun??
by Sam
Saturday, Sep. 27, 2003 at 9:00 AM
"The Israelis are not the aggressors." Bullshit. The Israelis have been illegally occupying the West Bank and Gaza Strip for 36 years. Israeli started the 1948 war. Israel started the 1956 war. Israel started the Six Day War. Israel started the war on Lebanon.
Yes, Palestinian terrorists have done some terrible things. And Israeli terrorists have done just as many equally (at least) terrible things.
"Go back to Palestine. They need a good paramedic to drive the ambulance. Especially when they are hiding a young kid in the back faking an injury to kill the Isrealis who may show mercy and try to assist. So with that sort of thing going on by the Hamas murders you can not complain AT ALL if the Isrealis feel the need to be more cautious."
This is Israeli propaganda. There is not one documented case of such a thing happening anywhere, any time, any place in Israeli or the Occupied Territories. Not one.
On the contrary, the Red Cross has reported numerous cases of Israeli forces deliberately attacking ambulances, medical personnel, and hospitals.
Re: JONAS
by Sam
Saturday, Sep. 27, 2003 at 9:04 AM
Actually, you're right. If you are really that wealthy, you're one of the true rulers of the country.
Savor your position of privilege while you can.
RE: Bullshit
by reader
Saturday, Sep. 27, 2003 at 9:27 AM
Could someone fix this page so that it fits in the browser. Jonas pisses me off not because he supports the Palestinian terorists, but because he can't post a page that fits in the browser. You want your message to get across, make it readable.
Re: Keep off the Grass
by Sam
Saturday, Sep. 27, 2003 at 9:40 AM
I often wonder if it trying to open the eyes of someone like you is even worth the effort, "Yassar", but regardless, here goes...
I challenge you to produce any evidene that Arafat is personally responsible for one suicide bombing sine Oslo. Just one.
The death of every innocent civilian, Israeli or Palestinian, is a tragedy. The ISM and other groups have frequently condemned Palestinian suicide bombings.
No, property destruction by Israelis, though illegal and immoral, is not the moral equivalent of Palestinian killings of innocent Israelis. The killings of innocent Palestinians by Israelis is the moral equivalent, and such killings are thoroughly documented, as I've noted elsewhere in this thread.
It's certainly true that Arafat and the neighboring Arab states have had a corrupting influence on the struggle for Palestine. But this doesn't absolve the responsibility of Israel for its own crimes.
In response to your racist "Where is the Arab Famous Historical Figure X" screed: when much of the Arab world was united under Islamic rule, it was a center of learning and culture. Tremendous strides were made in the arts and sciences. Jews and other minorities were treated much more fairly than they were in the Christian countries, which were at the time so backward that pretty much the only "medical" treatment they allowed was the practice of bloodletting.
The Ottoman years were the Arab equivalent of the Dark Ages. The Arab states were freed from Ottoman rule after World War I, but rather than gaining their independence, were placed under colonial rule by the West. When they eventually did gain their independence, the imperialist powers made sure to install corrupt, despotic rulers to further the interests of their patrons.
And that is largely why much of the Arab world is so backwards today.
The root cause of Palestinian terrorism is not Hamas or Islamic Jihad, and certainly not Arafat. The root cause is the injustice the Palestinians suffer at the hands of Israel.
The first intifada was much, much less violent than this one. What was the result? 10 Palestinians killed for every one Israeli killed, civilian or military.
Furthermore, Israel denounces all Palestinian resistance to occupation as "terrorism". Attacks on Israeli troops and paramilitaries are not "terrorism"; they are legitimate and effective forms of armed struggle.
The comparison to Irish nationalism is appropriate. Irish nationalists were and are great supporters of the Palestinian cause. Often, Irish nationalists would wear the traditional Palestinina keffiyeh at demonstrations.
The crimes of the Israelis are comparable to those of the British, if not worse. If you think differently, you obviously haven't read any human rights reports on the subject. I encourage you to consult the writings of mainstream groups such as Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Physicians for Human Rights, and B'Tselem.
BTW, it's interesting that you referred to the "Queen's Plastic Bullets" -- the Israelis don't use plastic bullets. They use rubber-coated metal bullets, and they use them in such a manner as to make them particularly deadly.
And your "Palestinian Racial Control" analogy is false. Palestinian crimes are not sanctioned or funded by the PA, despite what you might think. Israeli crimes, on the other hand, are sanctioned and funded by the Israeli government.
salaam
by JONAS
Saturday, Sep. 27, 2003 at 9:41 AM
"Actually, you're right. If you are really that wealthy, you're one of the true rulers of the country.
Savor your position of privilege while you can. "
Sam... I dont know if thats sarcasm or what. "True rulers of the country". I truly hope you dont mean that. I was simply stating that there are a great number of activists that that poster considers second class-- whatever screwed up perception of 2nd class he has conjured up-- actually arent (by his standards).
There are plenty of "activists" out there in good positions. Whether your a Doctors without Borders or Physicians for Human Rights, or individuals like Chomsky or edward said (RIP) and so on. However, the fact that you make more money than an peace activist doesnt make you right. Your eyes and heart do that. Anyone can see the humiliation and horror placed on the Palestinian people whether at checkpoints or when the Israeli soldiers come in and shoot randomly at children playing in the streets in Nablus or wherever, but you need to open up your heart too, placing all forms of racism aside, placing whatever imperialist, capitalist ideals youe may have, placing religious fundamentalism aside, and then whether you make 1000 dollars a year or 100,000-- you can see.
So open up.
To my Friend, "Reader"
by JONAS
Saturday, Sep. 27, 2003 at 9:45 AM
I didnt post this page, buddy. I have only been posting comments. Sorry that you were unable to determine this on your own. Hope you're not pissed off anymore.
:)
Megustaria enviarte un beso
Yeah, but
by reader
Saturday, Sep. 27, 2003 at 10:10 AM
Sorry JONAS, but the other pages you did post had the same problem. Could someone please fix it. And yes, it still pisses me off.
Welcome back Jonas!
by Rebecca
Saturday, Sep. 27, 2003 at 10:26 AM
malekincat@mac.com
Jonas -
I think Sam was responding to "pgh"'s posting "Jonas" with the "If you are really that wealthy, you're one of the true rulers of the country" (you know "pgh" - Mr. 40K [or was it 400?] a month - must be one of those "Herbalot" home sales people...).
Anyway, ignore the leeches who feed off discussions like this - it's a waste of time and space and ends up with misunderstandings like this between activists. There are enough people out here who want to hear more about your stay in Palestine, so let 'em rant.
From One Activist To Another
by BombSquad
Saturday, Sep. 27, 2003 at 10:40 AM
BREAKING NEWS --
RAMALLAH, West Bank -- Yasser Arafat's Fatah party on Saturday put together a new Palestinian cabinet, replacing a U.S.-backed security chief with an Arafat loyalist and bringing in nearly a dozen new faces from Fatah and smaller factions.
With the ouster of security chief Mohammed Dahlan, it appears even less likely that the Palestinian security forces will begin dismantling militant groups, as required by the U.S.-backed "road map" peace plan. Israel has said it won't move on its responsibilities under the plan unless such action is taken.
In the Gaza Strip, about 1,000 supporters of Mr. Dahlan staged a protest, burning pictures of Fatah officials.
The cabinet formation came a day after a Palestinian gunman sneaked into a West Bank settlement where residents were celebrating the start of the Jewish New Year, knocked on the door of a trailer home and shot and killed a man and a baby girl.
___________________
Gee, it really sounds like Mr. A and the Palestinians are truly ready for the responsibilities of statehood. Did someone say that Mr. A was not the sponsor of terrorist actions? I wish he were personally resonsible for a suicide bombing. Maybe at teh next PA Cabinet meeting.
"True Rulers of the Country"
by Sam
Saturday, Sep. 27, 2003 at 11:08 AM
What I meant to imply is that the United States is not a democracy, but a plutocracy. If the poster is telling the truth, then he probably belongs to the class which funds the campaigns, owns the media, etc. Were this not the case, the U.S. would've ceased supporting Israel long ago.
I don't mean to imply that people with money aren't welcome; of course they are. However, I feel that true peace and justice aren't acheivable without the abolishment of capitalism. The movement to abolish capitalism must necessarily be driven by workers, not employers.
What Rebecca said
by Sam
Saturday, Sep. 27, 2003 at 11:10 AM
Yes, I was responding to the post titled "JONAS". That comment was directed at you.
Why Does An Arab State Need an Army?
by Prodigal Yunzer
Saturday, Sep. 27, 2003 at 4:08 PM
Arab armies are just a waste of resources. Arabs have not won a war since the rifle was invented, unless you count inter Arab wars. They could use the Iraqi rifles for the Palestinian Army- never fired, only dropped once. Buying weapons for an Arab army is akin to a 75 year old alcoholic heart patient buying condoms for his big date- they probably won't be of any use, and serious humiliation will result if the occaision presents itself.
yeah thats right
by noah
Sunday, Sep. 28, 2003 at 11:47 AM
you know 2beers, you are one smart cookie. where do you get your intelegence? why don't you try reading and learning instead of just trying to make rude comments about everything?
I bet ...
by ted durst
Monday, Sep. 29, 2003 at 9:07 AM
2beers can spell 'intelligent' correctly (don't kn)oha...
but you lose him...
by 3waters
Monday, Sep. 29, 2003 at 9:19 AM
at noah, a big difficult word.
Dancing in the Streets
by CMU Student
Monday, Oct. 06, 2003 at 10:22 AM
You paint the fence and talk about the oppressed and deprived freedom loving Palestinians. Then a well educated young Palestinian woman murders nearly 2 dozen Jews and Arabs in a restaraunt. Her family is practically overjoyed by her sacrifice as a murderess. You want to explain again why you and the likes of Rachel Corrie exult these murders. Change the Palestinian and Arab culture that preaches this hatred and glorifies murder before you expect Isreal to give up its self defense. The UN has to have an emergency meeting as the world got its nose out of joint over the death of a couple of guards at a Syrian terrorist camp. But there were no emergency meetings or angry outcries from the Arab world over the murder in that Haifa restaraunt. Let's all get together and paint the fence with the message "Stop Senseless Palestinian Racial Cleansing and Murder of Isrealis." Let's call upon Arafat and all other Arab nations to condemn in no uncertain or equivocable terms the Palestinian dedication to terrorism. Let's all go to the photo exhibition at Wm Pitt Union and hand out flyers which show the rejoicing in the Palestinian villages each time another son or daughter sacrifices themselves to hell for their murder of innocent women, men and children of Isreal. This is Palestinian ethnic cleansing of Jews and anyone who does not cower to the Palestinian cause of genocide for Jews. Why do you think that this attack happened in Hiafa in this place? Because it is a town and a place frequented by moderate Arabs who have found that peace with the Isreali Jews is acceptable if not desirable. But now Hamas has sent a clear message -- "If you are Arab and you associate with a Jew you make yourself a target of our attacks without remorse."
PA needs cleaned up
by .
Wednesday, Oct. 08, 2003 at 9:44 AM
http://www.pmw.org.il/new/tv.html
Go look at those videos and then come back here and try to claim Arafat has nothing to do with terrorists. He may not directly arm them (although he definitely does so indirectly) but he's almost 100% responsible for mass producing them.
If this site is true...
by Hank $
Wednesday, Oct. 08, 2003 at 10:02 AM
...then the Palistinians are deserving everything that they get. That is disgusting to teach children that suicide for a political cause is great and brave.
I do have one problem though, there is no audio to compare with the subtitles. I find it hard to doubt though because the story lines seem to follow the text, but you can't be so sure. Look how OJ was framed.
![[masthead]](/images/masthead_140.png)