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FTAA: Anyone heard anything?
by wondering
Thursday, Nov. 20, 2003 at 10:02 AM
Just wondering if anyone had heard from the padded bloc, or anyone else from Pittsburgh that's down there.
Just wondering if anyone had heard from the padded bloc, or anyone else from Pittsburgh that's down there.
miami vice
by anon
Thursday, Nov. 20, 2003 at 2:53 PM
Police have been firing on protesters with plastic bullets. One person from Pittsburgh was shot in the back but is OK apart from nausea and extensive bruising - he said he hadn't seen anyone else from Pittsburgh injured. If someone has more news please post.
No News? It's because...
by George K.
Friday, Nov. 21, 2003 at 9:26 AM
dodgerambler@yahoo.com
...that no one much cares. That's right...no one cares if a group of Mexican farmers are out of business. We have cheap food here in the US. We can get even more cheap goods from opening up trade with the rest of the Americas. How are artificial trade barriers going to help anyone?
The protestor knew that the price of violent protest was a possible rubber bullet or tear gas. Almost no one feels sorry for them. If anyone from IndyMedia actually had the drive enough to conduct a REAL poll of a REAL cross-section of the population, it would determine that most people here in Pgh are not aware of the FTAA, are not aware of the protest in Miami, and will continue to shop at places where they can get quality merchandise for the lowest price.
That type of poll will not show up here, of course. And, if that poll were conducted, those polled would consist of "shade-grown" hippies in the University district of Pittsburgh.
Pandora is out of the box on free trade. All people can do now is to try and regulate "fair-trade". Good luck on that issue.
Have you also realized that many of the countries that have signed on to the Kyoto accords are now either reluctant to pay for the cost of implementation, or have companies that are located in those countries that are threatening to leave said countries due to the restrictions placed on doing profitable business there? This is occuring in the EU and Japan.
The net effect will be to push all of the polluting industries to the third world, where people will have their quality of life "increased" by more work and genetic defects from pollution! And cheap goods!
Ahh, the legacy of the environmentalist crowd....free-polluting, third-world industry, and the exploitative trade-policies that have been devised to deal with it.
.
by john
Friday, Nov. 21, 2003 at 10:14 AM
no news about padded bloc. supposedly it didn't happen, after all that work.
yeah, I heard something
by Irving
Friday, Nov. 21, 2003 at 4:49 PM
There was a report that someone had lobbed a bar of soap into the crowd. Killed at least 200 of the lice farmers.
George...
by Sam
Saturday, Nov. 22, 2003 at 9:00 PM
Shut the fuck up. Or at least take the time to research the views of your opposition, rather than presenting some caricature of them.
BTW, polls consistently indicate that most Americans are very concerned about "fair trade" issues -- in fact, that's one of the things they're most concerned about.
George...
by Sam
Saturday, Nov. 22, 2003 at 9:00 PM
At least take the time to research the views of your opposition, rather than presenting some caricature of them.
BTW, polls consistently indicate that most Americans are very concerned about "fair trade" issues -- in fact, that's one of the things they're most concerned about.
ad hominem Sam
by Irving
Sunday, Nov. 23, 2003 at 1:28 PM
Actually, George soundly slapped the fire out of you, and all you could say was that what he said was a caricature.
The burden is on you EcoNazis to lay out your case, as flimsy and as faddish as it is.
And I'll save you from trying to give me a retort, Little Precious - give us absolute proof that the Kyoto crap is sound, and not political. Explain how the Earth has survived many periods of warmth and cooling. All you lice farmers shout about danger to us, while all you hypocrites really care for is to hug trees. Humans are expendable, and one need look no further than the Earth Summit of 2002, where the black man was relegated to starving.
My facts are citeable
by George K.
Monday, Nov. 24, 2003 at 5:20 AM
dodgerambler@yahoo.com
I can provide facts pertaining to the reluctance of the "Joyful Signitories" of the Kyoto accord who now want to back out.
From Wall Street Journal, Europe, 10.29.03
EUEffort to Fight
Global Warming
Hits Money Snag
By VICTORIA KNIGHT
Dow Jones Newswires
BRUSSELS-The European Union's
fight against global warming may be
stalling as some governments back away
from a promise under the Kyoto Protocol
on climate change to give aid to poorer
countries, EU diplomats said .
More trouble for the Kyoto treaty is
coming from the European Parliament,
which is delaying the first reading of a
bill designed to regulate emissions trading.
The move puts at risk a 2005 deadline
for implementing the legislation .
The EU has been the most vocal supporter
of the treaty, negotiated in 1997 in
the Japanese city of Kyoto, and it criticized
U.S . President George W. Bush for
pulling out of the agreement in 2001 .
But now the EU is having trouble keeping
its promises to cut so-called greenhouse
gases, such as carbon dioxide, by
8% from 1990 levels by the end of the
decade . Based on current trends, the European
Environment Agency predicts
emissions will fall only 4 .7% by the time
the targets become binding between 2008
and 2012.
The EU, along with several industrialized
nations, promised two years ago to
contribute 9-450 million beginning in 2005
to developing countries to help them combat
emissions of greenhouse gases . The
current dispute centers on how to share
the cost . EU countries are supposed to
present a united position Dec. 1 at a meeting
of the United Nations Framework
Convention on Climate Change in Milan.
But EU environment ministers meeting
Monday in Luxembourg, who were
expected to rubber-stamp the funding,
failed to agree . Diplomats said Spain,
Greece and Portugal resisted . "Some
countries want to pay less than was originally
agreed," an EU diplomat said .
The Southern European countries
want to reduce what they agreed in principle
to pay at a U.N. meeting in Bonn in
July 2001, arguing they are poorer than
their Northern European counterparts.
Spain, Portugal and Greece want to
see their combined contribution reduced
by about 0-20 million a year. But under
EU law, countries are supposed to pay
in proportion to the amount they pollutenot
in proportion to their gross domestic
product.
"Some countries seem to have abandoned
the `polluter pays' principle," another
EU diplomat said .
Italy, which holds the EU's rotating
presidency, has proposed anotherround of
discussions on Dec.8-in the midst of the
U.N . conference, which runs until Dec. 12 .
"Countries have to realize that there
is a cost associated with reducing emissions,"
said Stephan Singer of the World
Wildlife Fund. "It shouldn't be a race to
the bottom."
The EU is behind schedule in implementing
another important aspect of the
Kyoto Protocol : emissions trading, which
would allow EU companies to buy inexpensive
pollution credits from developing
countries.
Use of the pollution credits would allow
the EU to cut its Kyoto bill by about
20%, or about 0-680 million . Without the
credits, the EU estimates the cost of complying
with Kyoto would be 0-3 .4 billion .
But the European Parliament delayed
the first reading of the bill, which means
it might not be ready by, 2005, the
planned date of implementation .
Apart from cutting the cost of fighting
global warming, emissions trading is supposed
to spur investment by EU companies
in Eastern Europe and Africa and
act as an economic incentive to encourage
Russia to ratify the Kyoto treaty.
Moscow is demanding large sums of
investment in return for its signature on
the Kyoto treaty, and emissions trading
could help by encouraging EU investment
in clean transportation and power
plants in Russia. Moscow worries that
ratifying the treaty could impede the re--~
covery of its industrial production .
Here We Go...
by Sam
Thursday, Nov. 27, 2003 at 11:13 AM
There's really no point in my responding to you. I'll outline my case, then you'll respond with some Limbaughism, then I'll refute it, and then you'll blame it all on Clinton's penis. Nevertheless, here goes...
I support free trade. I think that all tariffs ought to be abolished. At the same time, I realize that free trade is a terrible thing -- it will inevitably lead to the enrichment of the few and the impoverishment of the many. Of course, the same is true of protectionism. What makes free trade more progressive is the fact that it tends to globalize capital to the point where it becomes easier for people to view themselves less in terms of nation and more in terms of class.
But the FTAA has nothing to do with free trade. The FTAA has to do with protecting global north-based transnational corporations -- in effect, smashing the competition. The FTAA will not abolish tariffs -- only those tariffs that harm these corporations. Furthermore, the FTAA reduces environmental, labor, and human rights protections to "trade barriers" to be abolished. That's not free trade.
This isn't just about Mexican farmers going out of business (in fact, I don't really see their going out of business necessarily as a bad thing). This is about the livelihoods of workers in the North as well as the South.
Agreements like the FTAA make it much easier for business to instigate a "race to the bottom". After all, it makes good business sense to employ the cheapest labor possible. That means that workers in every country will have to work for less in order to be employed. It's no coincidence that the living standards of American workers have been on the decline for the past 30 years, and that there's greater inequality of wealth than there has been at any time since the 1920s (and as any economist will tell you, that inequality played a role in causing the Depression).
equality
by sam spade
Thursday, Nov. 27, 2003 at 11:59 AM
Oh, how I long for the days when you stood in line for hours for one roll of fine grit toilet paper and a pair of two left shoes.
Commie freak....
Environmental Myths
by Sam
Thursday, Nov. 27, 2003 at 3:50 PM
First of all, Irving, I'm not a "tree hugger" by any stretch of the imagination. I'm an environmentalist. But I want to preserve the environment because doing so ultimately benefits humankind. There are cases in which some environmentalists have decided that preserving nature is more important than providing fulfilling lives for human beings; and in those cases, those environmentalists are wrong. But it's crucial to distinguish between social ecology and deep ecology.
You say that the "black man" suffered because of the Earth Summit, but provide no evidence to back up this claim. Typical. Of course, I wouldn't necessarily disagree with it -- the summit is deeply flawed, mostly because (like all international institutions) it's deeply beholden to corporate interests.
Concerning global warming: it is true that there have been periods of global warming in the past, without dire consequences. The big difference now is that the world has a much bigger population. Thus, heavily populated areas like urban centers in low-lying coastal zones are highly vulnerable to climate shifts. So, what kind of industry-funded pseudoscience are you going to try to throw at me next?
Concerning Kyoto: the burden of proof isn't on me. I know FReepers aren't big on logic, but that you can't prove a negative is pretty basic stuff.
P.S. Irving, do you even know what an ad hominem attack *is*?
Spade
by Sam
Thursday, Nov. 27, 2003 at 3:52 PM
Most Russians would *love* to return to waiting days for shoes and toilet paper. It's a lot better than starving in the streets like they do now.
pathetic Sam
by Irving
Thursday, Nov. 27, 2003 at 4:24 PM
Amazing logic, how you can't prove a negative. Then I'll ignore you Chicken Little's and your Pavlovian cries of Kyoto.
And I'll just ignore you in general. Anyone but a moron heard of the Earth Summit, of how ecofreaks and dictators rubbed elbows in a starving land, filling their faces with lobster and steak, using up precious water, creating tons of trash.
At the risk of you whining about ad hominems, Little Precious, allow me to tell you to look up Bullshit Trophy in a Google search.
Oh, forget what I said about ad hominems, especially since I had to tell you about the trophy, know what I mean, Mr. Educated?
my friend Sam
by uneducated and backwards Irving
Thursday, Nov. 27, 2003 at 5:09 PM
Allow me as one of those dreaded uneducated and lowly nonintellectual Freeper types to give you a little lecture about ecology, of things I don't see you legends in your own mind talk about.
Since you're a snarky Little Precious�, scrivening and twitching in your high chair, I don't suppose you remember when VCR's were built like tanks. Now they're flimsy and plastic, and the landfills are filling up with them. I don't like that. I don't like how it's cheaper to buy a new TV than repair it, either. Never mind how computers, by and large, are disposable either.
I don't like that see-through plastic packaging on everything nowadays. Used to, if you wanted to check out a new Walkman or a camera, you took it out of a little cardboard box. Now you risk losing a finger on that plastic crap. But hey, the lice farmers gotta see what they're pulling off that peg at the head shop, ain't that right?
Used to be cold drinks came in returnable glass bottles, and you paid and got a deposit on them. Not any more. So many things come in plastic instead of glass, and I don't like that. And I'm sorta in a hurry here, and have only given quick examples. But I don't hear you ecowackos talking about the little things, the things that are tangible and real and able to be discussed and dealt with. Instead all that comes out of your mouths is the same old Kyoto FAD shit. It's political, and it's conjecture, and between the butt chasers and Collaborators it's hip and it's kewl. Like the Pavlovian phrases "racism" and Homophobia" and "tolerance" and "diversity" Kyoto is the word from the bird.
I don't throw trash out the car window either, Little Precious�.
You come back when you have ideas that will apply to the real world. I have no time or credence to give to trendy fantasies.
Oh, and when are you pious champeens of "civil rights" going to come to my defense and shout "Freeperphobia" in Borgian unison? Which reminds me - since you're so up on overpopulation, and you Leftists also champion the AIDS plague carriers and Communism and Socialism and Fascism, allow me to direct you to the studies of Calhoun's Rats. A lot of your pathetic and misguided philosophies and beliefs came from the major media centers, located in those dense burgs. (Think NY and SF, when it comes to perversity). As you'll see, there's more than just the environment at stake, know what I'm saying?
To Sam Spade
by Dashiell Hammett
Thursday, Nov. 27, 2003 at 7:07 PM
I have nothing to add, but I just wanted to let you know that your slightly obscure detective reference did not go unnoticed. Bravo, friend.
obscurity
by Dixon Hill
Thursday, Nov. 27, 2003 at 8:37 PM
Sam who??? 
i Dont...
by george k
Saturday, Nov. 29, 2003 at 8:56 PM
dodgeramber@yahoo.com
I do not listen to Rush Limbaugh. I do not subscrube to any conservative type mags that i can whip quote out of to post for your perusal. I post actual wire clippings that are not confabs. Kytoto is a failure due to cost and favoritism. Global warming is a false assumption based on faulty input information.
me neither
by Lenin Sisters
Saturday, Nov. 29, 2003 at 9:04 PM
Global Warming is a hologram, and my baby thermometer is clenched by twisted rage.
![[masthead]](/images/masthead_140.png)