community-based, non-corporate, participatory media
Residents Show Tremendous Support For Civil Liberties
by pooja
Thursday, Dec. 11, 2003 at 7:19 AM
For Pittsburgh Indymedia
At the City Council hearing Wednesday evening, about 40 people spoke in support of the Civil Liberties Resolution the PBORDC and local ACLU have proposed. In all, about 90 people were present to show support for the resolution. The statements made by concerned residents were truly poignant and the hearing was a dramatic show of solidarity and hope that democracy in America is alive after all! While many supporters were upset that five Council members did not come to the hearing, all were grateful to the Council members that did take the time to hear their constituents. Among the Councilpersons that were present were Twanda Carlisle, William Peduto, Gene Ricciardi, and Sala Udin. PBORDC would like to thank everyone that showed their support and concern for eroding freedoms by coming to the hearing.
The Pittsburgh Campaign is coming to an end very shortly. On Tuesday, Dec. 16 City Council will be voting on the Resolution at their 10 AM meeting. We encourage you to come to this meeting (in the City-County Building, 414 Grant Street, Council Chambers) and remind your Council representatives that preserving freedoms is a very important local issue. Express your concern if they failed to attend the hearing (and thank them if they did). After PBORDC and our friends have collected and presented to Council over 800 petition signatures demanding this hearing, it is unacceptable that some members failed to attend this very important event. The Council members that did attend the hearing are already in support of the resolution. Those who are still wavering chose not to take the opportunity to educate themselves at this hearing. Remind them that they are your voice, and in order to do their jobs, they must listen to your concerns.
Lastly, some Council members have expressed that the Resolution is not appropriate because they feel the PATRIOT Act and civil liberties are a national issue. Remind them that this is not just a national issue. It is a local issue as well because freedom fighting begins at the local level. Only with a groundswell of support from united local communities will acts like the PATRIOT Act be repealed at the federal level. From its inception, America has valued giving power to the local governments. Ask that Council uphold this value and do its duty by protecting its constituents against intrusive federal laws. If they still insist that the resolution regards a national issue, ask how it can possibly be harmful for them to vote for the resolution even if this is supposedly "just a national issue." Even if the resolution is simply a symbolic act that together with the 225 other communities that have passed similar resolutions sends the message that Americans do not want to give up their freedoms, so be it. At least Council could be doing something ACTIVE by passing the resolution instead of something PASSIVE by letting the federal government take away our Constitutional rights.
vote date change
by pooja
Thursday, Dec. 11, 2003 at 12:29 PM
The vote on the Resolution has been rescheduled to Monday, Dec.22 at 10 AM.
Kucinich is only candidate who voted against Patriot Act
by phiat
Thursday, Dec. 11, 2003 at 9:18 PM
phiat99@yahoo.com
If we look back to the origins of the Patriot Act, we see Dennis Kucinch and a mere 20 other members of congress voted against its passing. The Patriot Act is the concrete problem against Benjamin Franklin's sacred saying: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." To help remedy our nation and world, we need someone with strength and foresight to take on America's troubled leadership.
contemplation
by Irving
Thursday, Dec. 11, 2003 at 10:16 PM
Ya know, this all sounds just fine and dandy. I appreciate how Leftists are beating their breasts and once again crowing about civil rights.
But I'll have to get back to you. First I'm gonna consult with some burka wearing woman who bears the scars of years of torture, whose husband they just now found in a mass grave, who nurses the wounds of her child who had a power drill ran through it while she and her husband was forced to watch.
If she tells me she was heartwarmed by all the marches organized by A.N.S.W.E.R. that gave aid and comfort to her tormentors, then you'll have my blessing.
oh yeah
by for irving
Thursday, Dec. 11, 2003 at 11:14 PM
They might not be too happy about the US government either. The same government that abandoned Afghanistan after the cold war was over and allowed that terrorist rat's nest to happen in the first place. And it�s amazing how much we cared about their freedom ONLY AFTER we were attacked (and after negotiations between Unocal and the Taliban over the right of way for a gas pipeline fell thru). But hey, the US is only out to make the world safe to free people all over the earth, right?
I can only marvel
by Irving
Thursday, Dec. 11, 2003 at 11:51 PM
Keep talking, human panty shield. All our lives hinges on the words of a self absorbed hypocritical childmind who keeps blaming the US because it is a cowardly Appeaser.
you might be a useful idiot if....
by Irving
Thursday, Dec. 11, 2003 at 11:54 PM
You Might be a Leftist If . . .
-You believe John Ashcroft poses a greater danger to America than Osama bin Laden
-You think President Bush lied to the nation but his predecessor did not.
-You believe President Bush is too dumb to be President and Arnold Schwarzenegger is too dumb to be Governor of California, but the Dixie Chicks, Martin Sheen, Alec Baldwin, Barbra Streisand, Eddie Vedder and Jeanine Garofalo are qualified to discourse at length on foreign policy.
-You believe all conservatives are racist, but do not think minorities can ever succeed without Affirmative Action.
-You can't decide which is worse: the Patriot Act or the Patriot Missile.
-You believe Saddam Hussein, Kim Jong Il, and Yasser Arafat were fairly and democratically elected, but President Bush was not.
-You root for prisoners when they escape from our oppressive prisons, but oppose allowing poor children to escape from failing public schools.
-You support every kind of "diversity" on campus, except political orientation.
-You support banning the smoking of tobacco and legalizing marijuana.
-You are enraged by the so-called mistreatment of Muslim prisoners (who have gained weight while dining on their specially prepared Koran-approved meals) at Guantanamo Bay, but believe the world should have stood idly by while Saddam Hussein filled mass graves.
-You have found where the right to an abortion is written in the Constitution but cannot find where the Constitution provides for a right to keep and bear arms.
-You support campus speech codes that ban pick-up lines and amorous gazes, but never spoke out against President Clinton's physical sexual harassment in the White House.
-You applauded Jimmy Carter for talking about human rights in foreign policy but opposed George W. Bush for doing something about human rights.
-You believe that trial lawyers taking 33 to 40 percent of a plaintiff's recovery in lawsuits is just about right, but the federal government taking this amount of our income in taxes is not nearly enough.
-You believe the former Governor of a New England state with 608,827 people is more than adequately experienced to be President in 2004, but the Governor of a Southwestern state with 21,325,018 people was completely unprepared in 2000.
-You agree with Toni Morrison that President Clinton was "the first black President," but didn't criticize Al Sharpton for recently labeling President Bush a "gang leader."
-You believe we could get more truth out of the Pentagon if only Don Rumsfeld were replaced by Mohammed Al-Sahhaf.
-You believe evangelical Christians are destroying America but don't feel threatened by the radical Wahabbi sect of Islam.
-When it comes to violent crime, you believe in hating the crime but loving the criminal.
-You support unlimited appeals for convicted criminals, but believe it is undemocratic for Californians to reverse their earlier mistake of electing Gray Davis.
-You believe U.S. exports of genetically modified foods pose a greater threat to African nations than corrupt dictators like Zimbabwe's Mugabe.
-You believe welfare is a fundamental human right and workfare is a human rights violation.
-You believe religion is a scourge on our society, but becoming one with Mother Nature by merging with the universal consciousness and harmonizing with lunar reverberations will save us.
-You believe President Bush is an environmental criminal for poisoning the water with arsenic, but have never complained about Saddam Hussein's devastating Iraq and Kuwait's environment by setting intentional oil well fires and committing genocide against the Marsh Arabs by draining their wetlands.
-Your car sports the bumper sticker saying that "it will be a great day when our schools have all the money they need and the military has to hold bake sales," but oppose allowing the U.S. military to volunteer recruitment tables on college campuses because of their "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy.
If the above has successfully profiled you, congratulations! You have won a one-way ticket to Paris aboard the massive cruise ship, "The U.S.S.R. Michael Moore." Your ticket will be held at the nearest Dennis Kucinich for President rally. Matricular consular ID cards issued by foreign governments will be gladly accepted as identification
oh yeah
by for Irving
Friday, Dec. 12, 2003 at 3:21 AM
Oh yeah I keep forgetting, the US NEVER does anything wrong. Silly me.
go to hell iriving
by n
Friday, Dec. 12, 2003 at 4:59 AM
Why don't you act your age and not your penis size!
Can't you say anything intellegent?
It's people like you that make me ashamed to be alive!!!
discussion moderation
by Adam Retchless
Friday, Dec. 12, 2003 at 6:04 AM
I don't understand why IMC doesn't moderate these discussions, unless they just don't have the resources for it. These discussions become almost worthless when trolls like Irving make numerous long posts that are completey off topic (the Libertarian Party is not ANSWER!)
Alternet.org manages to host a worthwhile discussion board. I suggest that anyone who wants to host a discussion board check out Alternet's system.
Irving, Plagiarist
by Hagbard Celine
Friday, Dec. 12, 2003 at 7:18 AM
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=10210
I stole what?
by Celine Dion
Friday, Dec. 12, 2003 at 9:01 AM
You ever see stuff like that going about in e-mail, forwarded sometimes to you again and again?
Try harder next time, Little Precious.
Irving goes to hell
by Irving
Friday, Dec. 12, 2003 at 9:07 AM
"Can't you say anything intellegent?"
Anything wrong with that picture, Little Precious?
Adam the Ant
by Irving
Friday, Dec. 12, 2003 at 9:11 AM
Why don't you and Sam take it elsewhere, you leftist crybabies?
All you're doing is wetting your diapers because you want the moderators to protect you. Show some spine and face me directly, asshole.
You Leftist scumbags marched in the streets for face time, to be seen, for your 15 minutes of fame, and now they're uncovering the mass graves, which are IN YOUR NAME! I'm not going to let Collaborators forget it, not if I can help it.
Murderers and their helpers don't deserve protection.
irving is right
by amy
Friday, Dec. 12, 2003 at 11:31 AM
the poster adam sounds like the one who went to the du and complained the other day and even posted he hated the indy and now hes talking about alternet.if you dont like the indymedia then just leave
Some direct confrontation
by Hagbard Celine
Saturday, Dec. 13, 2003 at 2:43 AM
First of all, Irving, if you did get that list via email, it's customary to say so. Otherwise it's plagiarism.
Now to address the actual list (since it's the only thing you've posted in a long time that's even vaguely substantial):
"You Might be a Leftist If . . .
-You believe John Ashcroft poses a greater danger to America than Osama bin Laden"
Not really. They're both dangers to the country, but in different respects. Osama bin Laden actually wants to kill people. Ashcroft just wants to abolish their constitutional rights.
"-You think President Bush lied to the nation but his predecessor did not."
"President" Bush told and is telling huge lies that have resulted in death and destruction. So did Clinton. I don't know anyone who's said anything different. Furthermore, I don't know of any leftist who supports Clinton, who was less progressive than Nixon.
"-You believe President Bush is too dumb to be President and Arnold Schwarzenegger is too dumb to be Governor of California, but the Dixie Chicks, Martin Sheen, Alec Baldwin, Barbra Streisand, Eddie Vedder and Jeanine Garofalo are qualified to discourse at length on foreign policy."
One's occupation doesn't automatically make one an idiot. There are actors who know well what they're talking about. There are actors who don't. Thus, when Martin Sheen -- who really is an exceptionally well-informed person -- talks about these things, he really doesn't deserve your ridicule. That's not true of all celebrities, of course. Fred Durst's remark at the Grammys, for instance, was just idiotic.
Of course, the same is true of conservative celebrities. Where's the outrage from the right when Ted Nugent, Bruce Willis, or Charlton Heston express their opinions? And how do you reconcile your whining about everything that comes out of liberal celebrities' mouths with the fact that you deify a President who was a McCarthyite B-movie actor?
"-You believe all conservatives are racist, but do not think minorities can ever succeed without Affirmative Action."
It depends on your defintion of "conservative". It's inarguable, though, that over the past 30 years or so, the GOP has been exploiting white racism to get elected. Just look at how the whole welfare reform debate was framed in terms of race. Trent Lott and Henry Hyde, among others, have spoken at events and appeared in the magazines of the Council of Conservative Citizens, an openly racist organization.
And if support for affirmative action is racist, then the vast majority of African Americans and Hispanic Americans must be self-hating.
"-You can't decide which is worse: the Patriot Act or the Patriot Missile."
The Patriot Act. Missiles and tanks aren't inherently bad. Having more than you could possible justify as necessary to self-defense is.
"-You believe Saddam Hussein, Kim Jong Il, and Yasser Arafat were fairly and democratically elected, but President Bush was not."
Huh? I challenge you to find me one example of a leftist saying that Saddam Hussein or Kim Jong Il were democratically elected. Arafat arguably was (though there's disagreement about that one, too). And George W. Bush was not.
Voting irregularities in Florida aside, Bush's selection by the Supreme Court had no legal basis. Vincent Bugliosi and Alan Dershowitz have both written great books on the topic.
"-You root for prisoners when they escape from our oppressive prisons, but oppose allowing poor children to escape from failing public schools."
Like the above, this one has no basis in reality. Our prisons are oppressive compared to those of any other Western industrialized democracy (according to Amnesty Int'l and Human Rights Watch, anyway), but very few people are happy when robbers and murderers escape. Drug users and prisoners of conscience shouldn't be there in the first place.
Our public schools, well behind those of other nations, have improved steadily over the past few decades. There is room for improvement, yes. But you don't cure a headache through decapitation.
"-You support every kind of "diversity" on campus, except political orientation."
The idea that conservatives are some kind of oppressed minority on campus has very little basis in fact. Anecdotes supposing demonstrating the heavy-handedness of the "PC" establishment are almost all demosntrably taken out of context, exagerrated, or fabricated outright.
On the other hand, there are numerous well-documented instances of students and faculty being harrassed and discriminated against on the basis on race, sex, sexual orientation, religion, ethnicity, and progressive views (opposition to the war on Iraq, for example) that have gotten nowhere near the amount of media attention as the aforementioned incidents.
"-You support banning the smoking of tobacco and legalizing marijuana."
Lots of leftists smoke tobacco themselves. I don't, and I don't think that it should be banned; though I don't think I should have to worry about being exposed to second-hand smoke.
And yes, marijuana should be legalized.
" -You are enraged by the so-called mistreatment of Muslim prisoners (who have gained weight while dining on their specially prepared Koran-approved meals) at Guantanamo Bay, but believe the world should have stood idly by while Saddam Hussein filled mass graves."
I believe, like Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and every other credible, mainstream human rights group, that the prisoners at Guntanomo Bay are being mistreated.
I also believe that the U.S. should have done something about Hussein's human rights abuses when most of them were committed -- in the 1980s, with the support of George H.W. Bush and Ronald Reagan.
"-You have found where the right to an abortion is written in the Constitution but cannot find where the Constitution provides for a right to keep and bear arms."
You're conflating the left with the Democratic Party. This leftist supports abortion rights *and* opposes more gun laws.
"-You support campus speech codes that ban pick-up lines and amorous gazes, but never spoke out against President Clinton's physical sexual harassment in the White House."
No "speech codes" ban pick-up lines and amorous gazes. They do ban sexual harrassment (which is just as bad to right-wing men who, I'm sure, would just as soon return to the days of clubbing women and dragging them back to their caves).
"-You applauded Jimmy Carter for talking about human rights in foreign policy but opposed George W. Bush for doing something about human rights."
Once again, you're conflating the left with the Democratic Party. Jimmy Carter supported the Shah and Suharto. He didn't deserve his Nobel Peace Prize.
Of course, Bush is no better, supporting right-wing terrorists in Colombia, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Israel. His "doing something" about human rights has amounted to turning Afghanistan into Somalia and recolonizing Iraq.
"-You believe that trial lawyers taking 33 to 40 percent of a plaintiff's recovery in lawsuits is just about right, but the federal government taking this amount of our income in taxes is not nearly enough."
And you believe that the average CEO making 500 times that of the average worker is about right, while the U.S. government spending as much as the next 21 biggest spenders combined on the military is not nearly enough.
"-You believe the former Governor of a New England state with 608,827 people is more than adequately experienced to be President in 2004, but the Governor of a Southwestern state with 21,325,018 people was completely unprepared in 2000."
You actually have a point here. I have no idea why so many people are backing Dean.
"-You agree with Toni Morrison that President Clinton was 'the first black President,' but didn't criticize Al Sharpton for recently labeling President Bush a 'gang leader.'"
I agree with Al Sharpton's comment. I don't agree with Toni Morrison, but I'm a white guy. It would be racist of me to think that I have a right to tell one of the most respected African American writers who she can and cannot label "black".
"-You believe we could get more truth out of the Pentagon if only Don Rumsfeld were replaced by Mohammed Al-Sahhaf."
We'd get about as much.
"-You believe evangelical Christians are destroying America but don't feel threatened by the radical Wahabbi sect of Islam."
I feel threatened by *any* group that wants to abolish the separation of church and state.
Of course, the Christian rights makes up about a third of the country. Wahabbi Muslims make up a fracton of a percent.
"-When it comes to violent crime, you believe in hating the crime but loving the criminal."
Much like Jesus.
"-You support unlimited appeals for convicted criminals, but believe it is undemocratic for Californians to reverse their earlier mistake of electing Gray Davis."
Gray Davis wouldn't have been recalled if Issa wasn't bankrolling the venture.
"-You believe U.S. exports of genetically modified foods pose a greater threat to African nations than corrupt dictators like Zimbabwe's Mugabe."
They're both threats to African nations. And the U.S. has to claim a great deal of responsibility for both. Not only did the U.S. support apartheid in South Africa, but also backed Ian Smith in Rhodesia, Samuel Doe in Liberia, Halie Selassie in Ethiopia, Mobutu Sese Seko in Zaire, Hussan II in Morocco, and every Egyptian regime after Nasser.
"-You believe welfare is a fundamental human right and workfare is a human rights violation."
Insofar as "workfare" is a code for abolishing the social safety net, yes.
"-You believe religion is a scourge on our society, but becoming one with Mother Nature by merging with the universal consciousness and harmonizing with lunar reverberations will save us."
Wha...? Nancy Reagan's the one who had the astrologer, bud.
"-You believe President Bush is an environmental criminal for poisoning the water with arsenic, but have never complained about Saddam Hussein's devastating Iraq and Kuwait's environment by setting intentional oil well fires and committing genocide against the Marsh Arabs by draining their wetlands."
And here I thought I lived in and could affect policy in the United States, not Iraq! Silly me!
"-Your car sports the bumper sticker saying that 'it will be a great day when our schools have all the money they need and the military has to hold bake sales,' but oppose allowing the U.S. military to volunteer recruitment tables on college campuses because of their 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' policy."
There's no contradiction at all. With a smaller military budget, there would be a surplus of volunteers.
Hey Amy...
by Dorn
Saturday, Dec. 13, 2003 at 4:02 AM
it's not adam's fault that the imc won't enforce its own rules...
hey amy...
by dorn
Saturday, Dec. 13, 2003 at 4:02 AM
it's not adam's fault that the imc won't enforce its own rules...
customary
by Celine Dion
Saturday, Dec. 13, 2003 at 10:28 AM
It's also customary, at least for other than Leftists, to trust your insticts and use common sense and call things like you see them, so I'm calling you a disengenuous twit.
The IndyMedias are absolutely loaded with things posted with no links, no credits. You know it, and I know it. I can't remember the last time I saw a "Hey, guys, I got this in an e-mail!"
Now, if you can provide some proof, some links, then I'll eat my words. But until then, I'll consider what you said just a childish attempt at saving face when you were caught in an outright lie.
addenda
by Irving Dion
Saturday, Dec. 13, 2003 at 10:31 AM
You can keep changing names, durutti, but we all know it's you. You have this pathological need to keep addressing me and parsing everything, when you were utterly obliterated on another thread.
But keep going. It's kinda fun watching a spastic in motion.
oops, almost missed this
by Dan Savage/Sewage
Saturday, Dec. 13, 2003 at 10:37 AM
...."who was a McCarthyite B-movie actor?"
Uh, aren't you the one who ran to the DU sewer and sprayed your urine everywhere because the Pittsburgh IndyMedia, which says it's an open newswire on it's shingle, didn't protect you with McCarthyite measures?
The quality and credibilty of DU'ers, not to mention the tensile strengths of their bladders, is at all time lows....
Nice.
by Occasional Occupant
Saturday, Dec. 13, 2003 at 11:18 AM
Wow. I don't normaly post to Pitt IMC. Normaly I just like to read about Irving and Co. crazy antics, but I think Hagbard Celine's reply was just about wonderful.
The trolls (I don't call them by name because I'm becoming more certain that they are all actually one person) posted an absurdly long strawman-out-the-ass article that nobody even wanted to dignify with a response, but Celine hit the nail on the head. As I read each of Troll's "rhetorical points" I was think pretty close to the exact same thing as Celine was.
Now, I imagine what will happen is that rather than actually having a debate, Mr. Troll Man will move on to some other topic.
That seems to be the conservative style of debate.
Hit and run.
Say something with a lot of bad language and demeaning words and then flee before anyone has a chance to debate with them. And if anyone does respond they run the risk of sinking to the trolls level, they would turn the debate into pathetic mudslinging (the home turf of the conservatives.)
Anyhow, props to you, Mr. Celine. You countered the blow perfectly in my opinion without sticking your head up your ass like a troll.
On a differant note:
I like Alternet message boards. They are very intellectual, but they have a differant vibe about them. I like Indymedia too. To IMC people: don't let these assholes bring you down. Indymedia rocks.
If anybody has a good idea of how to make Indymedia better while holding to the principles of freedom of expression I'm sure the IMC people would be happy to listen. If a few ignorant trolls are able to bring down something this beautiful I will be very sad, I think.
i
by i
Sunday, Dec. 14, 2003 at 6:23 AM
Occasional Occupant - You may want to read this latest thread before you OD on your sanctimonious pablum:
"Anal Sex Byproduct Named for Senator Santorum"
Dennis Kucinich: False Messiah
by Hagbard
Sunday, Dec. 14, 2003 at 9:18 AM
He also voted for a constitutional amendment to ban flag burning, and until recently opposed legalizing merijuana and was one of the most rabidly anti-choice members of Congress.
Re: customary
by Hagbard
Sunday, Dec. 14, 2003 at 9:24 AM
Why Irving, I thought you held yourself to a higher standard than everyone else on IndyMedia!
After all, they're just a bunch of ignorant kids, right? We can't expect them to do what's expected of them.
But I expected more of you, being the all-knowing, decidedly mature fellow that you are.
McCarthyite Measures?
by Hagbard
Sunday, Dec. 14, 2003 at 9:36 AM
Well, the fact that Reagan was a McCarthyite wasn't the essence of my argument. But since you brought up the topic...
From the policies page:
"The Pittsburgh IMC editorial collective reserves the right to "hide" posts to the newswire that:
"...have been posted by someone pretending to be someone else...
"...are comments to a post that do not pertain to the original post...
"...posts that include ONLY a link or ONLY a cut and pasted story from another website...
...all comments off topic from the original story..."
pretending to be someone else
by haggard Bard
Sunday, Dec. 14, 2003 at 1:26 PM
Is that your argument, Little Precious?
How many names have you gone by, Sam/durruti?
hugs and kisses, sweetheart....
![[masthead]](/images/masthead_140.png)