community-based, non-corporate, participatory media
Excessive Police Force
by Joe
Tuesday, Apr. 08, 2003 at 7:04 AM
Pittsburgh is not the only city where the police have reacted to demonstrators with excessive force. In Oakland, California, protestors and longshoremen were the targets of police shooting with wooden pellets.
Like Pittsburgh, the Oakland, CA city council approved a resolution opposed to the war. Unlike Pittsburgh, the Oakland Ca city council is investigating the police actions. So far, I have seen no evidence of any official interest to investigate the Pittsburgh Police.
Where is the Pittsburgh City Council?
www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/5579733.htm
Police Use of Force
by Pittinger
Tuesday, Apr. 08, 2003 at 12:22 PM
Beth.Pittinger@city.pittsburgh.pa.us 412-765-8023 816 Fifth Avenue Pittsburgh PA 15219
Related to use of force by police, on 4/8/ Joe asks where City Council is...reminder - the Bureau of Police is adminstered by the Executive Branch of City Government. City Council does not employ or manage the police.
The Citizen Police Review Board is an independent body that receives, investigates, holds public hearings and makes recommendations on policies or individual complaints, to the Chief of Police and the Mayor of the City of Pittsburgh.
Regarding the M20 incident, we received 1 complaint and 3 other inquiries (hmmm...and 122 were arrested???)
The M30 incident did not occur in the City.
We were created by the people and enabled by City Council to investigate complaints of police misconduct - use us.
why people don't
by --
Tuesday, Apr. 08, 2003 at 12:27 PM
I understand the frustration related to people not utilizing the office, but it's important to keep in mind the reasons why. People have a legitimate fear that if they make a complaint they will be targeted by the police. People also are unsure of how the office works or IF there is any chance of a positive result. Why go through the hassle if you don't have reason to believe it will result in any change in the system.
What about the DeFazio's Gestapo
by One of 122
Tuesday, Apr. 08, 2003 at 12:29 PM
Granted M20, the city cops were assholes, but the REAL probelm were the sherriff's deputies. They initiated the riot, and have alot of nerve to cry about grant money for riot gear when their shields looked like factory car windshields. Where did they get those dusty Vietnam era helmets that they trotted out for their hearing? Everyone of those bastards was wearing a brand spanking new Kevlar helmet.
Police Review Board-Beth
by Joe
Tuesday, Apr. 08, 2003 at 2:35 PM
Beth, I really appreciate the way that you are posting information here. You definitely give the impression that you sincerely would like to learn more about twhat happened on March 20.
Here is one problem, however. Your current process of filing a sworn complaint is time-consuming and intimidating. I have a suggestion for you. Why don't you hold an open hearing for the 122 people that were arrested? In that forum, individuals could come forward and describe what happened.
In my opinion, here are the biggest problems on March 20
1. The arrest records that indicate there were multiple PA announcements to disperse. Actually, most of the announcements were "get on the sidewalk". Almost everybody on the sidewalk was arrested anyway.
2. The police blocked off the street so that nobody could leave. If you think about it, how else could they have arrested 122 people? When the arrests started, people naturally wanted to leave, but they couldn't.
3. The police primarily arrested younge people and focused on people wearing certain clothing. There were many people over the age of 40 on the sidewalk who were not arrested even though they were next to individuals who were arrested.
4. People were treated terribly at the Jail, which is not your area to investigate. This treatment included racial and ethnic slurs.
5. Also, not your problem, but a self-described "ultra-conservative" magistrate decided to furnish punish demonstrators by establishing high bail. He also ignored a court order to release people on their own recognizance, by refusing to accept reasonable proof that they live in Pennsylvania. As a result, demonstrators were held in jail for up to 35 hours, without even being allowed a telephone call (or a bed).
Open Hearing
by Jack-in-the-box
Tuesday, Apr. 08, 2003 at 3:08 PM
Sorry, I have to disagree completely with the open forum idea. The whole idea of the sworn complaint is to make the complainer have some accountability and credibility. If it's intimidating, then tough. You mean it wouldn't be intimidating to walk up and testify in front of God knows how many people? What would happen is what happens on IMC, people with no real credibility or accountability will simply make false allegations just to bust on cops. It would be a circus. If they have a legitimate complaint, then let them sign an affidavit swearing to it and file it. The open hearing would end up as a big rally with no real fact-finding. If there haven't been more than 1 or 2 complaints filed and there really were 122 arrested, then I think those ralliers need to grow a spine and stand up for themselves by filing a complaint.
Open Hearing
by Joe
Tuesday, Apr. 08, 2003 at 3:33 PM
It is my understanding that the Police Review Board has the power to hold hearings. I suggested a hearing because I thought that it would create an environment in which people might feel comfortable expressing their opinions. It would also show that the police review board is genuinely interested in learning what happened.
I thought of this approach because it is being used in Oakland, CA. In that city, when there were allegations of police mis-conduct, public hearings were immediately scheduled. All citizens were invited.
It is time to bring what really happened on March 20 into the public view.
Protestors aren't always peaceful
by Solius
Tuesday, Apr. 08, 2003 at 4:50 PM
Protestors don't practice what they preach. Sometimes you can't even tell that the protestors know what peace is. Get the facts straight before you go accusing the police of brutality. Back when the anti-war protestors went on the Delta Upsilon front lawn which is private property, the police didn't do anything even when they had the chance so don't just assume that nothing happened to cause the use of pepper spray. And since when did pepper spray become excessive force?
Excessive Force
by Joe
Tuesday, Apr. 08, 2003 at 5:04 PM
I believe that the arrest and detention of 122 people on March 20 was excessive. Just what happened on March 20? There was a traffic jam? Big deal Does that really justify the arrest of 122 people? Should they have really been held in jail for 34 hours?
When you hear about the arrest of 122 people, you expect to hear about thousands of dollars of property damage from a riot. The event on March 20 was far less disruptive than fans leaving a Steelers game.
The facts, just the facts
by Jackel
Tuesday, Apr. 08, 2003 at 5:21 PM
First, we don't know if 122 people were really arrested. Second, we don't know how long each were held in jail. It could very well be, and likely is, that a couple were held in jail longer for good reason. But, this is how liberals work. They make the assumption by reading some crap on a liberal website that 122 people were held in some dark, soundproof, rat-infested jail cell for 34 hours without food or communications of any kind. Then, after assuming that, they move on to protest about it. If 122 people were arrested and held for 34 hours in Pittsburgh, then why is it only talked about here? I would expect that to be front page news. This is worse than Rich Mackin being a rapist!
Facts
by wheatpaster
Tuesday, Apr. 08, 2003 at 5:42 PM
I don't know why I bother...
http://www.postgazette.com/localnews/20030323locaprotestreg3p3.asp
Here is an article from the post gazette that talk of 122 arrests really happening. Notice the post-gazette writer feels the journalists who post here on the IMC are credible for sound information. Also note that this was written before some idiots thought it appropriate to post false information like battery and rock throwing on M30. I hope our website maintains its credibility and the hatas just go away.
-peace
missing
by Jan
Tuesday, Apr. 08, 2003 at 5:49 PM
I clicked on the link , and it is missing. You have to let the post Gazette know that you linked to them/
if a tree falls down but Fox News doesn't report it, did it really fall?
by q
Tuesday, Apr. 08, 2003 at 5:56 PM
yeah, the arrest of 122 peeps on m20 should have been a bigger news story but that's the way things go in these days...
i was down at the jail for a good part of the day(thur.&fri.) waiting for my friend to get released. he was held in jail for 22hrs.-he had no prior record, was a PA resident and had a valid license to prove it. the court system was in chaos due to the flux of people. plus they were struggling back and forth whether or not to let people released on their own recog. this stuff really happened-people posting on this website were actually there.
here's some nasty pics of oakland peeps...
http://www.nyc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=54869&group=webcast
if a tree falls down but Fox News doesn't report it, did it really fall?
by q
Tuesday, Apr. 08, 2003 at 6:01 PM
yeah, the arrest of 122 peeps on m20 should have been a bigger news story but that's the way things go in these days...
i was down at the jail for a good part of the day(thur.&fri.) waiting for my friend to get released. he was held in jail for 22hrs.-he had no prior record, was a PA resident and had a valid license to prove it. the court system was in chaos due to the flux of people. plus they were struggling back and forth whether or not to let people released on their own recog. this stuff really happened-people posting on this website were actually there.
here's some nasty pics of oakland peeps...
http://www.nyc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=54869&group=webcast
Come count heads 4/11, 8:30 AM, Housing Court
by One of 122
Tuesday, Apr. 08, 2003 at 6:09 PM
I was in until Saturday at 3:30 AM. This is all a matter of public record, and you could request the information. I had no ID, and priors, so that's probably what took so long with me (the "red, white and blue" magistrate didn't help things). Why is it so hard to believe that 122 people were arrested? Sounds more like Beijing than the 'burgh?
You seem like one of those who says "they are fighting for your freedom", but "don't exercise your freedom."
There are countries which don't allow dissent and I'm sure you would be happier there.
Well, Sadly, There really were 122 people arrested on M20
by Mildred
Tuesday, Apr. 08, 2003 at 6:29 PM
Well, Jackel, I am sorry to say that there really were 122 people arrested on March 20. 122 PEOPLE!
And there was no significant property damage. No significant injuries (other to arrestees). Minor disruption of traffic.
AND 122 PEOPLE WERE ARRESTED!
All young. All opposed to the war. And nobody is interested in holding any hearings on police mis-conduct or false arrests.
AND THERE REALLY WAS A MEAN-SPIRITED MAGISTRATE WHO UNNECESARILY LET PEOPLE STAY IN JAIL, INSTEAD OF PROCESSING THEM.
Of course, nothing is going to happen to that guy! No hearings. No investigation. No disciplinary procedures.
Public Hearings
by Matt
Tuesday, Apr. 08, 2003 at 9:35 PM
I throughly believe that everyone who was arrested and feels that the police responded with excessive force/brutality should file a complaint with the CPRB. The CPRB has been around for a number of years, but is not used to the extent that it should. The only way the CPRB will truly be effective is if we start to use it. That gives us the authority to go before city council and the mayor to increase the power of the CPRB.
Secondly, while the CPRB could call a public hearing, the cops would not be obligated to show up and testify themselves, nor would City Council members have to show. On the other hand, according to the Home Rule Charter for Pittsburgh, citizens have the right to a public hearing on any topic of public interest if 25 residents (over the age of 18) sign a peition stating the topic of the public hearing and that all 25 people wish to attend.
With 122 people arrested, getting 25 to sign on to such a petition would be easy. Petition forms can be obtained from the City Clerk's office. Now of course, the organizing that would have to go into turning people out to the event and gathering people willing to testify is a slightly more difficult matter...
thoughts/comments?
PA Prisons
by k.
Tuesday, Apr. 08, 2003 at 9:36 PM
I realize the pgh 122 were not treated well at the ACJ. However, everyone please realize that PA does not have a particularly good reputation for treating the incarcerated nicely. It strikes me as selfish to complain about 20 to 30 hours in prison without also talking about some of the less fortunate folks among the prison population who are abused over a period of several months or years.
Please see http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/j/p/jph13/TalesfromPAPrisons.html - this is a page from Julian Heicklen, a retired Penn State physics professor who has spent a lot of time with inmates in central PA prisons. He is also somewhat famous for smoking joints at the main gate of Penn State at high noon, but that is another story.
PA Prisons and Demonstrators
by Barry
Tuesday, Apr. 08, 2003 at 10:16 PM
While I agree, "K", that PA prisons have a bad reputation, it is pretty clear that the PGH122 were held for political reasons. The magistrate, Eugene Zielmanski, actually bragged about being an ultra-conservative and, in my opinion, clearly abused his powers. It is absolutely outrageous that the ACLU observer was the last to be released. She was held for 35 hours, even though she was injured.
Escalation?
by not tonight
Tuesday, Apr. 08, 2003 at 11:23 PM
Given the increasing brutality of police riots nationwide since the ground war began, it would appear that the police have turned up their level of violence. Not according to them.
The awful truth is, by most departmental standards, all non-deadly force is the same. Pepper spray is spring baton is rubber bullet is police dog (put hot sauce in spray bottle, and mist your pant legs,shirt sleeves, and footwear)is flashbang grenade is nightstick anywhere but the head, etc...
They consider anything but shooting and head bashing "non-deadly".
Dissent
by Jackel
Wednesday, Apr. 09, 2003 at 8:05 AM
Hell no, I'm all for dissent. That's what makes America great! In fact, I got in a argument with my father-in-law who said that burning the flag is unconstitutional. Although I would personally like to beat the sh*t out of someone who did that, I think that it is the PERFECT example of our constitutional right to free speech against our government! However, and you all still miss my point, I argue about the 122 people because: (1) 9 times out of 10, the protestors don't really care about the war or have the facts but simply rally for a cause so they can "belong" because they are otherwise social misfits; (2) I've never even heard about it and I watch all the news (conservative and otherwise); and (3) you guys all seem to jump on bandwagons based on rhetoric and not facts. Those were my points. If those 122 people were so mistreated, then why is this website the ONLY place I've ever even heard of it. Hell, if I were arrested without cause and brutalized, I'd file a complaint and make one hell of a stink. However, as is the custom with the rally-weenies, rather than do the right thing and file a complaint and work it through the system, they simply whine and complain on a website. I have no sympathy for them or that process. If you were brutalized, then grab yourself by the short hairs and do something about it other than whine on here. It's kind of pathetic.
Jackel...
by Daniel Papasian
Wednesday, Apr. 09, 2003 at 8:21 AM
Jackel, I don't know where you've been, but the 122 arrests were well documented by every pittsburgh media outlet.
Yes, there was an ACLU observer who was arrested. Yes, a woman who was arrested had her nose broken while being pended.
And yes, there is civil legal action planned for once the trial is over. People aren't just whining about it, they're in touch with good lawyers and taking action.
no its not
by .
Wednesday, Apr. 09, 2003 at 8:29 AM
Sure, bringing charges against officers is the best way to get them to leave you alone. The CPRB has no power, and no one has to listen to them, so why bother, it'll just get the cops to follow you more closely. And wow! you watch allthe news, I'm impressed, it still doesn't mean that you ever hear the truth, the news has sponsors to please, so you're never going to hear truth.
That's what indymedia is for. For eyewitnesses to new to report what they say, it's available to all, you and me, to write about what we witness first hand. So I would say, if you only heard about something on Indymedia, than it's doing it's job, telling us what news-for-profit won't.
Let's recap the "news" M20 downtown, channel 11 reports cops beating protestors after windows were broken and cars spraypainted. Never reported again or anywhere else, (even w/ the police.) M30 Braddok Ave, Channel 4 reports that protestors were throwing rocks and batteries at cops, again, not ever corroborated, no one arrested was charged with assaulting an officer, only one officer responded to the "missile throwing". So yeah, watch _all_ the news, you'll be as well informed as the sponsors want you to be
hmmmm
by Evan N
Wednesday, Apr. 09, 2003 at 5:56 PM
Jackel keep this in mind when questioning why these atrocities arent being exploited in the news:
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media."
--William Colby, former director of the CIA
Death from a thousand cuts
by Collections agent
Wednesday, Apr. 09, 2003 at 9:59 PM
Hypothetical question:
If the police Lieutenant(an evil french word), let's say in Swissvale, tells bald-face lies, and a municipality, Edgewood for instance, refused to discipline a rogue policeman, would widespread minor mutilation and defacing of municpal property (signs, vehicles, buildings, etc..) help to enlighten the local paid-off bottom feeders, who dole out the money?
Taking it personal
by -
Wednesday, Apr. 09, 2003 at 10:48 PM
Realistically, we probably shouldn't take this police stuff personally. What could we expect? I don't know if it's the blend of cops, or the start of the war, but the bosses weren't gonna pay Sunday overtime and escort us around town forever.
Hey Punctuation Mark
by Prodigal Yunzer
Thursday, Apr. 10, 2003 at 12:30 AM
Don't take it personal? Have you spoken to these retro flower children? They take everything personally.
You are a jawbreaker in a box of cupcakes, my friend.
jackel
by schnell
Thursday, Apr. 10, 2003 at 4:27 AM
do you watch or read LOCAL news? the protest and arrests on march 20th were top stories on all the local news shows that day, and on the front pages of both the post-gazette and the tribune-review. the most cursory internet search for information on local news sites yields tons of documentation of the number and manner of arrests and length of detainment.
i see the post-gazette link didn't work but here is kdka:
http://kdka.com/siteSearch/local_story_080145440.html
city paper:
http://www.pghcitypaper.com/archives/newsarch/feature/nz03/nz032603.html
tribune-review:
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/search/s_124764.html
wtae:
http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/iraq/2053080/detail.html
etc
by schnell
Thursday, Apr. 10, 2003 at 4:44 AM
there are also links to 3 p-g articles on the pittsburgh aclu site: http://www.pgh.aclu.org/aclu.html
Mmm...cupcakes
by P. Mark
Thursday, Apr. 10, 2003 at 5:56 AM
Prod, I'm one of those arrested on 3/20. I was none too happy about it. Was on the sidewalk, held too long, no phone, etc... It wasn't my first time in the bullpen, so when a virgin of the justice system would say "They can't _____" I'd say "They just did."
"They have to _______" .No, they don't.
I have personally spent alot of time yelping about "the police state", so you couldn't say I was surprised, when that's what they're delivering. It's like bitching about the weather, though.
I'm not defending the recent actions of law enforcement vs. dissenters in the US. Arrest those Iraqi "exlies" (the majority of whom were born here and on watch lists) in Michigan, sports fans, and those Wrigley's spearmint gum people who were blocking the sidewalks on Smithfield when I was leaving work yesterday. Will they? No.
If traffic blocking is a major crime, all of PENNDOT should be herded into FEMA camps, wait they're mostly judge's nephews, won't happen. Which makes all those who complained about traffic jams on 3/20 seem extra silly. "You poor thing, you sat in traffic, in downtown Pittsburgh, during rush hour? What, an extra 10 minutes?" Sporting event? No. Bon Jovi came back to town? No. Another bridge closing? No. Parking cops using three lanes of traffic to tow a car which was obstructing half-a-lane? No.It was protesters! Grrr.
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