community-based, non-corporate, participatory media
bush protest filled with wild pigs and dogs
by imc video collective
Monday, Apr. 19, 2004 at 7:39 PM
video@indypgh.org
Here a few video stills from today's Bush protest at the David Lawrence Convention Center. The video will be posted after it is vetted by legal.
A cop places a chokehold on a POG organizer...
pain
by imc video collective
Monday, Apr. 19, 2004 at 7:39 PM
video@indypgh.org
arrest2.jpg, image/jpeg, 613x420
...and proceeds to drag the pogger down the block, effectively strangling him.
more pain
by imc video collective
Monday, Apr. 19, 2004 at 7:39 PM
video@indypgh.org
But strangling one POG organizer wasn't enough for this monster -- so he pulls out a retractable baton.
unhappy
by imc video collective
Monday, Apr. 19, 2004 at 7:39 PM
video@indypgh.org
what's in the bag?
by imc video collective
Monday, Apr. 19, 2004 at 7:39 PM
video@indypgh.org
police dump the organizers' belongings onto the sidewalk...
sniff
by imc video collective
Monday, Apr. 19, 2004 at 7:39 PM
video@indypgh.org
...and sniff his water bottle.
wild dog
by imc video collective
Monday, Apr. 19, 2004 at 7:39 PM
video@indypgh.org
one cop held at bay an angry police dog that, if unleashed, would probably have eaten the first black-garbed protester in site.
also, beating in rear
by video collective, etc.
Monday, Apr. 19, 2004 at 7:46 PM
notice another cop beating on another protester on the right of the image
context is key
by anony
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 1:16 AM
Notice the cop in the back, swinging his club
The police did their job well
by POG PIG
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 4:19 AM
Good job by our men in blue. After the wrongdoers were removed from the crowd, everyone seemed to get along fine. The police were polite and even spent some time talking to some of the protesters. The protessters were there to give out free pretzels to the cops and other attendees. And one young black blocker from some local high school even spent time showing his nice black flag to the police. I guess he was selling bug killer with that big black flag.
Did their job?
by perplexed
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 5:06 AM
Except I don't think you understand what the job of the police really is. Maybe you would like to know what one of the officers said he would like to do to me if he didn't have his "badge" on. Serve and protect (the rich)
Maintain Order
by POG PIG
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 5:36 AM
I know what their job is. They did that job very professionally. What did you say to the police officer? Why were you hassling people just walking down the street? Trust me, these guys don't really like getting that close to you rabble. They have to have their uniforms professionally cleaned after they come in contact with you "protesters" and that costs the city a lot of money. Please clean up your act. Is there some law that says you can't dress better for these protests?
Lay them off
by Good cop
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 5:44 AM
Don't you drug-dealing, ticket writing swine realize that Bush's policies were what led to you comrades being laid off? When will you wake up and turn your weapons on the real enemies and not the people you took a job to protect?
just doin my job
by Urban Guerrilla
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 6:17 AM
Is part of the job using threats like I heard on the 11 o'clock news lastnight such as, "I'll break your fucking skull!" Or the body slam, yes body slam the news crews also caught on tape? Yup, that beefy cop really needed to slam that scrawny kid to the pavement, hey, he's just doing his job. A Pittsburgh Post Gazette photographer was also prodded with a baton and told to "get that thing (camera) out of my face" as she attempted to photograph what was happening. Is it also their job to threaten the media?
Got what you wanted
by George K.
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 6:37 AM
vine_swinger_chuckie@yahoo.com
Well, with all the squealing you POGgers are doing here (led by Tim swVining), you got what you wanted: media exposure of being the mass of unwashed, black-garbed, scarf-wearing "communistas". The one quote in particular in todays Post-Gazette was REALLY humourous...something to the effect that "we would not support ANY president ... we do not recognize any authority...". Wow. Now THAT is a group that can get things DONE. Then others are quoted as saying that they are SPECIFICALLY THERE to protest Bush. Make up your minds.
I am pleased to see that "you" have finally settled on a hive-like mentality of repeating the tired line "we wear bandannas over our faces so the authorities cannot take pictures of us and recognize us". Gee. Do you think that you are that much of a threat? Don't pump yourselves up too much, because you aren't a threat to the system.
If "you" step outside of the designated protest area, you get beat.
And, in the end, the motorcade came in by a different route anyway. BOO HOO.
protest
by Janus
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 9:37 AM
George has a few good points but it doesn't excuse the facts that:
1) The police dogs where a disaster waiting to happen and where totally unneeded.
2) Too many police on staff to deal with such a small, unarmed, non-violent (some where disruptive, but still non-violent), group of people.
3) The police should have been man enough to know that 2 feet of a BLOCKED OFF STREET is not worth knocking people over for.
4) As was stated earlier, a commanding officer would have been nice.
You talking to me?
by Geo Kay
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 9:47 AM
"remember, we know where you live." That soudns like a threat. It sounds like intimidation. That seems pretty clear that you are trying to threaten someone into watching how they dissent from your hierarchy of leftist control. Oh you are so non-violent and peace-loving. You want to threaten people then you WILL get your asses thumped by the police. And by their little dog too.
.
by amanda
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 9:51 AM
The persons arrested were charged with obstructing traffic/disorderly conduct. Everyone is dogging the police over the arrests, but what I don't get is why the bloc didn't follow the simple orders of keeping out of the streets, waiting for green lights, etc etc. If they had been more focused on protesting Bush rather than being disorderly to prove their point there wouldn't have been any arrests (just like the protest last month in oakland!!), and THAT is a succesful protest. All these fools did was make the rest of the protestors look bad.
...
by andy
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 10:12 AM
I agree with amanda. This stuff just makes us all look bad. We do this and no message gets heard. The only message becomes the arrests and no one ever really seems to know why there was an arrest or really care. Stop this at future protests and let's start focusing on our message.
Great solidarity, Amanda
by @
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 10:19 AM
All these fools did was make the rest of the protestors look bad. Great solidarity. Thanks, its not like we all weren't there to oppose GWB. If something had happened to you yesterday the BB would have had your back. You are responding in the EXACT way the current administration wants you to. Divide and conquer. I am not only "dogging" the police for the arrests (which were completely unnecessary) but the violence they envoked, the racist comments, their militaristic attitude, the bicycle in my gut and their threats to the safety of everyone there. I did however appreciate the solidarity of the group after the arrests were made. A lot of folks stepped up to make their opinions known while the BB held the line and kept them safe from more police violence.
*
by BB ?
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 10:24 AM
The BB did nothing to stop anything. The BB caused the problem and then they want credit for stopping the problem? GTH.
.
by anon
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 10:40 AM
The police violently attack non-violent protesters, and somehow it is the BB's fault? Are you people going to start criticizing Martin Luther King's tactics because the police attacked them? Were attacks against the non-violent sit-ins at lunch counters the protesters' fault?
I knew Martin Luther King ..
by %
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 10:50 AM
and you ain't no Martin Luther King.
Quit burdening the reputaion of righteous great men with your misplaced hostility.
don't compare this protest to MLK
by amanda
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 11:26 AM
MLK protests we're set up so the protestors followed Law Enforcement Guidelines TO THE LINE!!! They did not go that extra 2 feet into the street. Also, the police were a little different at that time (if ever so slightly, they were.) Racism by police was much more rampant.
Of course I don't think the police should get away with using racial slurs and making racist comments, but I also don't think the protestors should try their hardest to aggravate the police by swearing at them and intentionally pushing the limits and disobeying the MINOR terms that have been set forth.
As far as having a commanding Officer at the scene goes: Usually when the President is in town the role of higher command officers shifts to crowd control in the area that is closest to the president. This officer should be in radio contact with all other officers to relay improtant information about the "most important" man in the country. Usually a Sgt or Lt or cheif, will have a general command over the area in which the protestors are located.
And when you have a bike pressed into your stomache... do you think its because the police say "get back - get back - bet back" and you don't listen???? Remember, this was a protest against the lies and manipulations of Bush to this country, not against police authority. The black bloc needs to take up their problems with Police at a seperate protest.
and I am not trying to DIVIDE anyone on this. We are all protesting the same thing, but its hard for some people to get the right message when some of us are doing things to undermine our responsiblity, integrity and maturity.
-a
What was said?
by Title 7
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 12:08 PM
What was the racial slur( or slurs) that the police used? Who were these directed to? Why were the police confronting the protesters with racially motivated speech? We need mroe to go on other than someone just saying the police used "racial slurs." What happened????
Dear Amanda
by y
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 12:21 PM
What exactly did you do at yesterdays demonstration?
I took a bike in the stomach because the police were silencing mine and the rest of the B.B.'s right to non-violent protest. Its our first amendment right in case you forgot (free speech?)The street was blocked off and we were trying to make out voices heard. Your last line made me giggle. You ARE trying to divide people locally. Can you please explain to me how "people" are going to get the "right message"? What would you have done if you took two steps off the sidewalk (just like all the Specter supporters did and the brilliant right wing supporters who can't even spell republican) and the cops told you do get back. Would you just remain complacent and do what they told you even though you weren't doing anything wrong? Sometimes you have to take a stand in life if you truely believe in something.
This administration and police authority are a marriage made a long time ago, you need to realize that.
too far left and too far right is never the best.
by amanda
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 1:53 PM
theres a difference between taking a stand and doing something stupid. You talk about the Bush supporters stepping out into the street with no police action - You compare us to the "brilliant right wing supporters who can't even spell republican" - don't you think its a little insulting to compare us to someone whom you think can't spell? And why wouldn't you listen if you KNOW that the police will arrest you/push you back and detain you if you don't? What good will you do in jail? No one can listen to people voicing their opinions and concerns from a jail cell.
"people" (as in society in general - you seem confused by the term) WON'T get the "message" if we're in jail. They won't listen to a bunch of kids who are "delinquints" and "criminals" being arrested and broadcast on the evening news. Do you think someone is going to abandon their norms of thinking to listen to some "freak" dressed all in black who can't even follow simple directions to stay on the sidewalk and gross when the light is green??? That is how they think. I am WELL AWARE that the police and the government and the administration are as one. What YOU need to realize is that WE already know this, the democrats know this, the liberals know this, the green party knows this -- WE are trying to get to the undecided and slippery-slope minded republicans and conservatives. In order to do THAT you need to make sure that they first don't tune you out totally just because you got arrested.
And to whomever asked: I didn't hear any racial slurs myself -- i was referring to a pervious post someone else made. BUT while at the NRA protest on Saturday an officer heard an NRA member call a few protestors "FAGGOTS" and his reply was "Faggot is not a derogatory term" - so yes, I know the police are unfair in this thing.
And please - don't question my knowledge of the constitution. I know every ammendment. I've taken a ton of law, criminal law, police operations, police role in crime, etc etc etc etc etc classes. I could recite the fucking constitution and at least half of the Pennsylvania Crimes Code to you, not to mention just as many of federal laws.
.
by anon
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 1:58 PM
I for one am not going to obey every police command just to please the liberal groups in Pittsburgh.
.
by .
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 2:29 PM
I second that. Just cause Amanda thinks her way is the only way to change the face of government doesn't mean that I have to comply. Some of us simply don't believe in electoral politics - and why should we? They've failed miserably in our own lifetimes.
Amanda - Who called for the protest yesterday? Who was arrested? Who was in the black bloc? Who applied for the permits? Who is working on their own time to gain legal counsel for everyone? Who provides food at the picnic type events?
Answer - All of the people you are so strongly against. You don't seem to grasp who we are, what we do, what our ideals are, how involved we are with things. Step back and think a bit before you are so critical of those working so hard within the movement. Some of us may don black at certain events, but that does not change our sincerity or hard work towards the end goal.
its a "free" country.
by amanda
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 2:31 PM
no one is asking you to obey every police command. But don't get pissed off when you get arrested because of it, and don't expect everyone to take you seriously after it. I don't create the laws, police reactions, or stereotypes that people get afterwards, but I awknoledge that they exist. Whether you do or not is up to you. My point is that its counterproductive to the common goal of ALL the protestors.
.
by amanda
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 3:06 PM
"All of the people you are so strongly against."
please don't confuse my opinion with being "against" something. I have worn black and marched right along. What I'm saying is that while the police were wrong for some of the things they did, would it have been so difficult to take 2 steps back, rather than land in jail? like a said: what good will your voice do if your in jail and no one can hear you? What good does it do to get arrested, when it can SO SO SO easily be avoided?
What are the batons?
by Some dude
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 3:09 PM
In the close up pictures of the cops in their wide-legged weird-ass stance the batons or trunches that they hold look very thin -- sort of like a short sjambok (as used by the S.African cops). Can someone confirm what type of baton this is, how long they've been using them and what the decision process to allow particular weapons for the cops is?
I note that in one of the pictures a fat, unhappy man in an overly tight uniform appears to be hitting someone with one of these truncheons/whips.
batons
by amanda
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 3:28 PM
I'm not sure what type of Baton that is, or how long Pittsburgh Police have been using those. Usually the decision process varies by department. The Pittsburgh Police have recently began exploring the use of different types of batons and tazers/stun-guns in light of the shootings of african-american males. (These weapons are considered more effective than pepper spray because pepper spray/mace has little or no effect on people that are under the influence of certain drugs.)
.
by amanda
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 4:12 PM
I'm not really sure of you are being sarcastic... i suppose its hard to detect that sort of tone via the internet. I am in the process of working on my bachelors, and I plan to get my masters - in criminal justice and criminology.
Actually, Amanda
by 2Beers
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 4:21 PM
That was one of my more serious postings here.
Sorry about the multiple postings. I am usually better about that, but this IMC tech stuff is really bad. They have managed to take my highspeed DSL and return me to the days of dial-up speeds. It's a bitch, 'cause I can't harass and harangue at the lightning bolt speeds with which I had become acustom.
.
by amanda
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 4:26 PM
in that case, thankyou.
I've been having problems with this site tonight. it keeps timing out and taking forever to load.
Hey, no problem
by 2Beers
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 4:57 PM
Ya see, I am not all bad. However, a good number of those protesters are.
The problem that I have (well it is not really a problem, other than the fact that they are such an attract target for ridicule) is that these protests are so incredibly successful at being useless and unsuccessful. It is always the same screwed up message ... no wait, there never is a message, because everyone has a message and some of these messages are even contrary to each others message.
They are so organized at being disorganized. Yeah, sure you have a march, but with all the diversity of tactics, diversity fo message, diversity of diversity, there is absolutely no effective communication. You want to get your message across but you have no idea what it is. Look at the protest yesterday. There were a bunch of people there to protest Geo Bush. Okay, great, that is democracy in action in this great nation. However, there were peopel there protesting him because he was the President, not for anything meaningful or that they might hope to change (read the paper, the guy said he would protest any president). There were peopel there protesting Bush but deliverying no alternative message. Not very effective protest ("we want change for the sake of change itself".) PPPUUUHHHLLLLEEEESSEEE !!! There were peopel there clearly because they had nothing better to do.
It is always a bunch of "diverse" messages and ideas and groups that it is nothing but background noise by the time you are done. Come on.. there was even some guy there protesting potato chips and handing out free pretzels. What the hell was that message? Then after Tim VIning sufficiently got his peopel arrested again (or at least facilitated the action that enabled his people to get arrested so he could make news again) he trundled on over to the jail to get those same people out and cry about how the police resorted to violence. From want I could see it was a few that asked to get arressted and did. Everyone else was free to speak there peace after the riff raff were gone.
And what is up with those ridiculous black bandanas. Cut the paranoid X-Files BS. You are not that important or threatening to national security or local security that you have to wear that Sandinista mask get up. (however you would likely get shot if you walked into a 7-11 wearing that get up). That Che Guevarra Latin Peasant Liberation Fron custom is SSSSSOOOO last century.
COM ON> Be proud of your message. Articulate it clearly. Get rid of the customs. and speak it already. You are all just ranting about BS. "Hey Look at mee. I have a message and you arent listening" that is all you communicate. People immediately turn off because you are ridiculous. You want to be effective then present yourselves like you EXPECT to be taken seriously, and not like you are dressed for a shoot out at the OK corral.
Also .... please bath. Those are nto jsut stereotypes. The next time you are at a rally, just take a sniff. And if the guy or gal next to you is emitting fumes like they are in violation of the Clean Air Act, politely tell them and then move away. You make absolutely NO statement with that whoel unwashed look other than that you have no respect for yourself. If you have no respect for yourself, and present yourself that way, then how nad why the hell do you expect anyone else to take you seriously. It's a freak show.
Then your "leaders" come out and they are little better. Do you thin that once ... just f'n once, Tim Vining could dress like a civil rights leader? A decent sprot coat, slacks that match, maybe a tie, shoes that command respect (they are the windows to the sole ... get it "sole"), and FOR PETE'S SAKE A NEW HAIRDO (come on, support your local barber adn treat your head better). Maybe even have a coherent prepared message, tailored to the event and not just a re-hash of old monologues. (And maybe if you guys could get him a platform or hold him up or soething, because he is hard to see in additinoa to being hard to hear above all the ranting, chanting, fussing, etc.) Maybe you could even get him a real sound system that works out doors. Jesse Jackson never has to use a Toys R Us megaphone for his speeches.
As a great man once said "Noonan ... See the Activist. Be. Be. Be the Activist." or something like that, I don't erally remember it all that well. He also once said "Jane you ignorant slut" but I am not sure that that really means anything anymore either.
Anyway, I wrote a haiku about it:
Stay on the sidewalk
Ouch, his teeth are very sharp
Oh, you protest so
.
by amanda
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 5:24 PM
one thing i will add: i would like to see better spokes people for the blocs. the orange bloc at the NRA protest had about 5 minutes of speaking time and instead of using it to focus on THE main issue at hand lie gun safety, gun control, illegal gun purchase/ guns used in crimes, gun owner responsiblity, etc etc, the spokesperson decided to speak about the NRAs racist, homophobic, "war-mongereing" members. While I don't doubt that is *exactly* what those people are - its a bit off the issue that we were all there behind, and its a bit immature and unprofessional to "trash-talk" them. it brings us down to their level.
And it would probably be a good idea to not speak to the media if you don't have a well prepared short & sweet statment - they edit it to make us look like uneducated hippy-dippy fools.
.
by anon
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 6:19 PM
Amanda, one of the main reasons the Orange Bloc was protesting the NRA was because it is a racist and homophobic organization.
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by .
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 6:43 PM
gee, for some reason i thought that was a rally and confluence against gun violence.
.
by amanda
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 6:47 PM
maybe we should go and speak about racism and homophobia at the march for womens lives because the republican law makers are mostly racist and anti-gay
..
by .motown..
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 7:56 PM
So how exactly is it that the message gets across to the "othert side"? By dressing up? obeying the rules for "protests,"? Or refraining from speaking to the media until our PR guy(or girl) looks at our speach? What other side are you talking about? Just the Bush team? Just the ones voting for Bush? Just the ones voting?
You can't help anyone when you're in jail? You sound like someone who's never lived in jail. You see, there are other people in jail, with lives and opinions that matter. With the same power that any one of us protesting on the street has. Who also know what it's like to live under oppression. I know you hate these analogies with heroic figures from the past and all, but Emma Goldman didn't stop organizing just because she was jailed, and neither did countless others.
My solidarity and support to all those arrested. I don't know that I believe that we are going to be able to save this world, but I don't believe that in good conscience we can stop trying.
.
by .
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 8:36 PM
As a member of the Orange Bloc of which Amanda admitedly was not, I would like to point out that we were protesting the homophobic war-mongering members of the NRA and its leadership. Our main issue and your main issue may differ on many things, you see? Nonetheless we come together for a common cause.
Amanda - Are you the same woman who asked Nathanial on Saturday if the Orange Bloc could be made to move elsewhere for our protest?
media coverage
by me
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 8:41 PM
in most of the mainstream media coverage of this event there was about a sentence -maybe a paragraph- which made mention of the protest. in the post gazette, an entire article and photo was dedicated to the fact that people were arrested. if it hadnt been for these arrests all we would have gotten was a sentence. regardless of how you feel about the black bloc, they gave us more than a sentence. i think thats pretty important. any publicity at all of people in resistence is definitly a good thing.
King Constantly Broke the Law
by Worried
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 9:24 PM
To set the record straight, Martin Luther King Jr broke the law and did so often. That was often a central strategy of his campaigns for civil rights and social justice -- filling the jails and creating a crises in communities that demanded change. This is why he is idolized today and called a hero -- he helped to lead a nonviolent insurrection that challenged authority in many institutions (including that of the police). To say that non-violently breaking the law is shameful or ineffective, as a blanket statement, is ridiculous when historical evidence clearly shows the opposite. Almost as ridiculous as criticizing someone as being dirty when they're different from you.
nra
by david
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 10:01 PM
amanda - about the NRA rally and concert: drawing attention to the NRA leaders' racism, homophobia, sexism and xenophobia was one of the main goals for the event, as well as for the entire confluence. take a look at http://www.goodbyenra.org.
how can one talk about violence prevention without considering the root causes of violence, which are bigotry, intolerance and economic injustice?
Dear Amanda, the "cops", et al.
by gwen
Tuesday, Apr. 20, 2004 at 11:22 PM
Cops are people too, and subject to the same flaws as anyone else. Protestors are also people, and subject to the same rights as anyone else. A few notes:
1) To the "cop" who insisted that washing the uniforms after getting in contact with protestors is costing the city money, and somehow this is the protestors' fault: You have got to be kidding me. No one is responsible for your prejudices but you.
2) To Amanda's Criminal Justice degree: There are also strict laws of conduct for the police; can you give us those rules? Because I seem to recall that overuse of physical force is against those rules, and I believe that the headlock documented falls squarely in that arena.
3) To the idea that the cops did a great job. When the mainstream media questions you, you did not do a great job. Period.
4) Yes, PoG is notorious for pushing the boundaries of the law, and overstepping them for civil disobedience. They have always peacefully done so, however. I am not clear on what happened in this case, though -- did PoG try to march down the street, or were they trying to leave the area on the sidewalk? Or did both happen?
In general) Honestly, to some in the crowd of protestors, expecting arrest is part and parcel (and do note that is a fraction of the group, not all of us). However, no one should expect abuse (excepting matters of self-defense) from anyone, and the law does explicitly deal with that matter. I.e., the cops are also not allowed to use unreasonable force.
Whether or not that was the case for all arrested remains to be seen. I wasn't there myself that day (I had a final at exactly the same time), but I find it absurd to discount that there weren't any errors when all accounts are specifically documenting violations.
From what I can tell from the accounts themselves, neither side is to be universally forgiven, but only one side was actively harming the other. And that is the side that is supposed to have the morality and training to know better..
italian comment
by cane pazzo
Wednesday, Apr. 21, 2004 at 2:09 AM
keep fighting, stay rebel: solidarity to u.s. protesters from italy
visit http://www.italy.indymedia.org
The batons
by Urban Guerrilla
Wednesday, Apr. 21, 2004 at 4:56 AM
Those batons are telescoping, high strength steel batons by a company called Armament Systems and Procedures. They have a nice little ball on the end that generates incredible force per square inch when swung hard. I've got one I've and given the choice, I'd rather get hit with a good old hardwood baton. There is NO excuse for using them on anybody except a person intent on inflicting you bodily harm.
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by amanda
Wednesday, Apr. 21, 2004 at 6:24 AM
I'm not going to address all of this because obviously someone is misunderstanding what I've said. I've NEVER EVER agreed with any of the actions of the police on monday. I've made it a point to say I disagree with how they handled themselves during the protest on monday and on saturday.
I would also like to say that No, I am not the woman who asked Nathaniel to move. In fact I was standing next to the orange bloc most of the evening with about 3 other friends. I was caught in the news covereage when the spokesperson decided to talk to KDKA. Just because I wasn't wearing ornage doesn't mean I wasn't there or that I was against your means of protesting. I'd like to applaud the Orange Bloc because when the police asked them to step back and threatend to cite them for obstruction they certainly did take a step back, and no one was arrested. Once again, I'd like to say that I've worn black and marched right along.
and as for legal use of force:
Use Of Force Continuim
first level: prescence
second level: verbal commands
third level: restrain and control
fourth level: chemical agents
fifth level: temporary incapacitation (using force which will cause enough pain to temporarily incapacitate the individual, such as batons, tazers, rubber bullets)
sixth level: deadly force
now, the members of the bloc admittedly disobeyed level II use of force, which brings the police to level III. I'm not sure, because I didn't see all of the arrests myself, but it could be argued that a headlock falls into restrain and control (level III). It is certainly not a chemical agent on level 4, nor is it level 5 or level 6.
Excessive Force: using force at the wrong level in the continuim. (use of level 4 when a situation only calls for level 2.)
Police Brutality intentional injuring of another person. Injuring of another person without good faith in your actions, or intentional injuring of another person without warrant for incapacitation, arrest and detainment.
like I said, I wasn't there to see each arrest and what led up to it, so I can not speculate on whether they went over the line.
and let me say it again: I DO NOT agree with how the police handled themselves on monday or saturday.
Thank you Amanda
by POG PIG
Wednesday, Apr. 21, 2004 at 6:39 AM
I think your information is very helpful. I was there and I do agree with the actions of the police.
Hey kids, this is NOT a game.
sure thing
by .
Wednesday, Apr. 21, 2004 at 7:17 AM
if you have any other questions about anything else I'd be glad to help if i can. keep in mind these are book definitions, and I'm not sure exactly how the Pittsburgh Police operate. Some standards vary from deparment to department.
you're right
by this is not a game`
Wednesday, Apr. 21, 2004 at 7:27 AM
this is really a life or death struggle to save our earth from the greedy bastards trying to choke it to death with wars chemicals and opression.
Keep up the good fight POG
hmmmm
by costa
Wednesday, Apr. 21, 2004 at 8:45 AM
i really hate the amount of energy that is put into this message board (and other ones in the area)...
however, more than a couple of things in this thread i havent been able to dismiss.
mostly, the fact that almost everyone here is arguing without any factual information about the first arrests. someone about twenty or so posts ago asked if anyone had information about the actual arrests, but i guess you were all to busy proving how "right" you are about how "the message" will get across or what "the message" is, to actually admit that you have no basis for your arguments (relating to the black bloc's actions or arrests)
also, from my experience (that phrase is a qualifier, it lets people know that what i am about to say is provisional knowledge, people on this board should learn to use qualifier, cuz you dont know everything)...as i was saying, from my experience, most of the folks involved in the radical left (anti-authoritarians, anarchists, anarcho-communists, black bloc types, if you will) have heavily studied the works of the moderate left and the non-violent peace movement (we've all read letters from an birmingham jail), but the converse is not the case. middle leftists wouldnt stay up half the night learning about the theories of the radical left, but they sure do like staying up to argue on a indymedia message board.
just to clarify a few things...
by pr0t3s7
Wednesday, Apr. 21, 2004 at 9:06 AM
to clarify a few key points...
the first people arrested were arrested on the sidewalk. the black male who was arrested was walking down the sidewalk for at least half a block when an officer grabbed him, threw him into a wall, then threw him onto the ground, then took it upon himself to throw him against a mailbox. the first white male arrested was grabbed in a chokehold while he, (like the aforementioned individual) had been walking on the sidewalk.
So, I'm not too sure how they (and most, if not all of the others arrested) were actively disobeying the orders of the police, being that they had been on the sidewalk for quite some time.
It should have been no surprised that the police were violent during the arrests, anyone who has had any experience with the darker side of the legal system can confirm that belligerent behavior on the behalf of the police has practically become protocol. This was exemplified earlier in the day when the police assaulted people with their bicycles while they were standing on the sidewalk, and when people were assaulted when they attempted to cross the street in the crosswalk.
saluti Italia!
by rebecca
Wednesday, Apr. 21, 2004 at 9:22 AM
malekincat@mac.com
Hey guys, you just got a message from the Italian Indy Media a few postings above... Doesn't anyone think it would be more interesting and productive to acknowledge / communicate with our friends in Italy than to continue endless discussions with the nerd element on this board whose sole intention is to waste everyone's time, post offensive pics and promote their own scary dogmas?
Take a look at the Italian Indy Media website referenced in the post - there's a translation button at the top. Its mind-opening.
Grazie mille di Pittsburgh, Cane!
Done and done
by mv
Wednesday, Apr. 21, 2004 at 9:52 AM
Dropped a line this morning...
?
by pr0t3s7
Wednesday, Apr. 21, 2004 at 10:33 AM
where's the "translation" button on the italian indymedia site?
Do Italian Pr0T3st3rs
by George K.
Wednesday, Apr. 21, 2004 at 11:07 AM
George K.
Do Italian protesters really wear designer "Black Bloc"- wear? Gucci bandannas, Fendi Facemasks....
And the Carbeneri use Bennetton Batons...
do american protestors
by porge k
Wednesday, Apr. 21, 2004 at 11:38 AM
do american protestors really eat hot dogs and go to baseball games?
no.
Damn IMC
by Godard is a Beatle
Wednesday, Apr. 21, 2004 at 2:09 PM
Too bad legal advised you to not post the video until after the civil suits. What I saw on WPXI was enough for me, though. Nothing like a clip of a red-faced cop, veins-a-bulging, dildo raised, screaming "I'll break your fucking skull, you fucking motherfucker" while the family's watching the 6 o'clock news.
Amanda
by orange bloccer
Wednesday, Apr. 21, 2004 at 2:18 PM
Although I welcome your seal of approval, we did not in fact obey the commands of the police, when ordered back into the "free-speech zone" we were not to be intimidated, and stood our ground. The lawman decided we were 'part of the protest' and threatened us with arrest if we did not return to the designated area. When one orange bloccer pointed out that there were lots of people dressed like us inside the convention center, the commanding officer let us be, but not without issuing a stern warning about sidewalk obstruction.
We were then able to walk towards the alley which runs parallel to penn ave. so we could greet the banquet guests.
orange bloccer
by amanda
Wednesday, Apr. 21, 2004 at 7:47 PM
the time i was speaking of that the orange bloc took a step back was when they were on the sidewalk at the edge of the alley and stepped into the street. the cops said to get back on the sidewalk or risk a citation and everyone took a step back.
What would MLK say?
by Danny P
Wednesday, Apr. 21, 2004 at 11:19 PM
dannyp@indypgh.org
This is in response to Amanda discussing MLK protests...
"Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that "an unjust law is no law at all"
...
Sometimes a law is just on its face and unjust in its application. For instance, I have been arrested on a charge of parading without a permit. Now, there is nothing wrong in having an ordinance which requires a permit for a parade. But such an ordinance becomes unjust when it is used to maintain segregation and to deny citizens the First Amendment privilege of peaceful assembly and protest."
I would love to know how you feel that MLK/SCLC events followed "law enforcement guidelines to the line" when MLK himself was arrested for parading without a permit- and maintained in his Letter from a Birmingham Jail that to do so was just.
Amanda, I'm personally concerned about the animosity you seem to hold towards those who haven't harmed you in any way; I shot this event, I started watching from before arrests were made, and what I saw was police inbetween the street and the protesters. There's no way (as far as I can tell) that the people who decided to walk away from the group were blocking traffic. The police were a buffer between them and the road. To call these people "fools" who "did something stupid" is concerning from someone who seems to be on the same side as everyone else here.
I'm also troubled by your repeated usage of the word "WE" without an explaination of who you are speaking on behalf of. Finally, the intellectual snobbery ("I've taken a ton of ... classes. I could recite the fucking constitution...") seems uncalled for. There is no reason to make enemies with people who probably don't differ all that much from you.
If you would like to discuss these issues, please feel free to email me.
.
by a
Thursday, Apr. 22, 2004 at 7:30 AM
"I've taken a ton of ... classes. I could recite the fucking constitution..."
i dont feel like going into this. its finals week. I will say that I said that in response to someone questioning my knowledge of the law. if it sounds like snobbery... well I don't know what to tell you about that.
Ridiculous
by Alex Ciotti
Thursday, Apr. 22, 2004 at 11:37 AM
ThisIsIt@Iamit.com
I was at the protest on April 19, 2004, and I have never seen that kind of police brutality before in my life. We were attacked with clubs, for what? Last time I checked we had freedom of speech. All that I'm saying is Bush is ridiculous, Pittsburgh pigs are ridiculous and I'm embarrassed to have a president who is a terrorist.
FREE SPEECH RIGHTS ??
by Bound & Gagged
Thursday, Apr. 22, 2004 at 1:34 PM
One of the greatest free speech violators is IMC. IMC has censored a number of postings on the monday protests for no reason other than these postings may have supported the police, proposed a view contrary to the IMC line or spoke disparagingly of the Sacred p.o.g. Blank Bloc.
You people are all a bunch of ignorant asses. You whine and scream about wanting to talk, and then you go and censor the speech that gets out here. Look at the positngs here. It is clear that you have taken several postings down since a bunch of the postings above seem to be in response to removed postings (and therefor the response doesn't seem to make a lot of sense without the corresponding reference). MORE INDYMEDIA BRILLIANCE. The educated and smarter-than-the-rest-of-us crowd over there at CMU and IMC. Selfish, self-involved losers is what you all are.
.
by .
Thursday, Apr. 22, 2004 at 2:18 PM
Actually, the posts that violated the posting rules have all been hidden. Very far left posts have also been hidden, such as the one aimed at George K that warned that the Black Bloc knew where he lived.
Not censorship, just violation of the posting rules.
response to bound & gagged
by Mary Hart
Thursday, Apr. 22, 2004 at 3:04 PM
mary@indypgh.org
We're happy to discuss the specifics of any post that has been hidden. You can email imc-pgh-editorial@indypgh.org or individual editorial collective members.
Information about why posts have been hidden (the posts are actually still available- click on "hidden" on the bottom right of the main page) is posted to the editorial mailing list. The archives of this list are public, you can get to them as follows:
go to main imc page http://pittsburgh.indymedia.org
click on "participate"
click on "lists"
click on "imc-pgh-editorial"
click on "archives"
(or, go directly to http://lists.indypgh.org/pipermail/imc-pgh-editorial/ )
then, click on the month you want to see, and whether you want to view posts by date, author, etc.
You can look and see why comments were hidden. There was a brief period this month when the automatic sending of notification of hiding to the editorial list was not working, which has been fixed. Other than that, you should be able to find documentation for all editorial actions.
You are also welcome to subscribe to the ed-list and receive the posts directly via email:
go to main imc page http://pittsburgh.indymedia.org
click on "participate"
click on "lists"
click on "imc-pgh-editorial"
provide your email address, select a password, and click "subscribe"
You may want to consider joining the editorial collective and becoming a more active part of that decisionmaking process if you have concerns about it.
For the record, this month I have hidden the following, with the following documentation (I've added the links to make referencing the hidden articles easier):
---april 14th ed list post--------------
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 12:08:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mary I Hart <mh5r@andrew.cmu.edu>
To: imc-pgh-editorial@lists.indypgh.org
Subject: [IMC-pgh-editorial] hidden
13511 anti-semitic
http://pittsburgh.indymedia.org/news/2004/04/13511.php
13519 using terms for mental illness as an insult
http://pittsburgh.indymedia.org/news/hidden.php?id=13445#13519
13529 anti-semitic
http://pittsburgh.indymedia.org/news/hidden.php?id=13511#13529
13544 homophobic
http://pittsburgh.indymedia.org/news/hidden.php?id=1423#13544 ("well whoopee"
mh
_______________________________________________
IMC-pgh-editorial mailing list
IMC-pgh-editorial@lists.indypgh.org
http://lists.indypgh.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/imc-pgh-editorial
-----april 16th ed list post-------------
[IMC-pgh-editorial] hidden- George K.
Mary I Hart mh5r at andrew.cmu.edu
Fri Apr 16 16:46:06 EDT 2004
Previous message: [IMC-pgh-editorial] Does Wayne VanDyne work for you?
Next message: [IMC-pgh-editorial] feature proposal
Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
13318 - this writer seems to be able to cross the line, editorially
speaking, the most times in the fewest words. If there were a year-round
version of the Natrat, he could run it...
pardon me, I was just grossed out...
mary
http://pittsburgh.indymedia.org/news/hidden.php?id=13318#13601
--------------------------------------------------------
Do discuss with us concerns about specific articles.
Everything that I have censored should fall under our guidelines...that does leave room for subjectivity, as I think we are all aware, and, admittedly, my personal beliefs do come into what I choose to hide, which is to say, I hide articles that express hatred toward individuals or groups because of race, religion, sexual orientation, or that advocate violence. It's a matter of conscience and ethics for me when I act to censor articles (and yeah, I do think conscience & ethics have to be a consideration for each of us as we act.)
I think I speak for the whole editorial collective in saying that we do not censor because of someone's political orientation- that would be in violation of IMC's guidlines- and that we all give a lot of thought and consideration to our treatment of items posted (and if you do follow the editorial list, you'll see we spend a lot of time trying to figure out the best thing to do in some cases.)
Again, we are all happy to discuss the specifics of actions taken on posts.
somehow still shocked
by kirsten
Saturday, Apr. 24, 2004 at 1:19 PM
disgruntled_kirsten@yahoo.com
wow. i'm from canada and do not by any means feel that i live in a society that tolerates or allows dissent, but my breath is always taken away when I see the violent images and multiple arrests that take place at American demonstrations. You all have such tremendous courage to face what the state tries to block you with, and I suppose that i just wanted to voice my support and solidarity to those who keep struggles going even in difficult times and places. good luck!
YOU ARE IDIOTS
by /
Monday, Apr. 26, 2004 at 7:09 PM
You taek down articles and posts for no reasons. Since when is the term "idiot" a statement as to "mental illness." You guys are not editors, but just the gatekeepers in your Orwellian little world of anarchists and other social misfits. You take down things you deem "provacative" or "provo", but you leave up other posts that would meet the same description, except those posts are all about your left-wing views. How dare you criticize the right or anyone for squelching dissent or attack anyone for denying you the right to speak when you all behave this way. You have no standards here. You want credibility but you have no idea how to achieve it.
You are all a bunch of self loving idiots with no concern for anyone else's views or any other viewpoints than your own. You are always telling other people to wake up or to "not be so closed minded", well you should follow your own advice.
Actually
by quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Tuesday, Apr. 27, 2004 at 3:46 AM
I know many of the editors personally, but they still remove my posts, when I cross the line.
Most recently, I posted publically available information, regarding the 'secure, undisclosed locations' of the sties where the pig, terrorist, meter maids with guns who were involved in the kidnappings at the Bush protest. The editors removed them, as well as other posts I've made which conflict with editorial policy.
Maybe I shold make up some big self-congratulatory holiday and campaign for myself, like you trolls do?
"idiots"
by Mary Hart
Tuesday, Apr. 27, 2004 at 4:40 AM
mary@indypgh.org
I hid the post, not for the use of the word "idiots", but because the poster attempted to denigrate an individual by saying that he was "schizophrenic", "manic depressive", and had been in a "mental institution" (poster's words).
I hid the post because attempting to insult someone by saying that they are a person with schizophrenia or bipolar disorder (correct term for "manic depressive") is akin to attempting to insult someone by calling them a name referring to skin color, religion, etc. The post was demeaning to people with mental illness.
Invitation from Mary Hart
by Yassar Datsmibebe
Tuesday, Apr. 27, 2004 at 7:04 AM
yassardatsmibebe@ummah.com
Do you really mean it? Can anyone join the Editorial Board? Even Me?
RSVP
by Gracious host
Tuesday, Apr. 27, 2004 at 7:50 AM
You've already started your editorial duties by not reposting images from free republic and other crypto-facist sites. That way they don't need to be hidden.
joining the editorial collective
by Mary Hart
Tuesday, Apr. 27, 2004 at 8:06 AM
mary@indypgh.org
If you are intersted in joining the editorial collective, feel free to post a note to the ed list (imc-pgh-editorial@lists.indypgh.org) telling us of your interest and telling us something about yourself.
If you are uncomfortable with having your real name appear in the publicly accessible ed list archives at this point, you can send that portion of your information directly to one of the editors.
Dear Gracious Host
by Yassar Datsmibebe
Tuesday, Apr. 27, 2004 at 8:15 AM
yassardatsmibebe@ummah.com
You have me confused with someone else. Maybe you should not project your prejudice on all that have a different opninion from you. ;)
My mistake
by Gracious host
Tuesday, Apr. 27, 2004 at 9:22 AM
http://www.indypgh.org/news/2003/12/11685.php
http://www.indypgh.org/news/2003/11/10102.php
http://www.indypgh.org/news/2003/10/9714.php
These aren't your shrill anti-semetic postings?
Gracious Host, you are mistaken
by Yassar Datsmibebe
Tuesday, Apr. 27, 2004 at 9:35 AM
yassardatsmibebe@ummah.com
Those are not my anti-semetic postings, or from Free Republic. However, those are my postings which relate to actual and timely events, with photos or material provided courtesy of Reuters, The Arab News, and other news organizations. These express an opinion, or present news items, and are not, as you say, anti-semetic. You may want to see my posting here http://pittsburgh.indymedia.org/news/2004/03/13219_comment.php#13328 in which I asked for further dialogue on realistic solutions for a peace in Israel and Palestine.
Indeed, there are several postings that are common around here which are horribly fascist, anti-semetic and anti-Israel. Those are not mine. It is not anti-semetic or racist to present a factual circumstance, such as the horrible human rights violations of the Palestinian leaders and terrorist organizations which use children as disposable weapons.
Zionism is Anti-Semitism
by Neutral like Switzerland
Wednesday, Apr. 28, 2004 at 7:24 AM
Period. Palestinians are Semites.
Host? Of What?
by Perplexed
Wednesday, Apr. 28, 2004 at 11:17 AM
Are you presuming that "you" somehow are the benevolent provider of this space. Are we all "your" guests? Do we owe "you" some deference? Are those that write here and express opinions that you disagree with or do not like just inconsiderate pigs?
Are you an elitist? Yes.
IMC is "open" for the expression of all opinions and ideas and news. You have no priority.
Mary....
by George K.
Wednesday, Apr. 28, 2004 at 11:34 AM
vine_swinger_chuckie@yahoo.com
Mary....some of the most vituperative satire is the blackest and stares us right in the face. One of my censored comments (about "lightening up") was just that...a comment that was satiric in nature, forcing the very subjects of my sentance to look back at themselves for using the very SAME WORDS. The same cultures use those words all the time (like McGruder in his Boondocks comics) and it is branded "satire". When I write it as satire (which people here do not seem equipped to understand), I "make people vomit".
Pathetic.
George...
by Mary Hart
Wednesday, Apr. 28, 2004 at 12:39 PM
mary@indypgh.org
I don't see the use of racial slurs as satirical, but disrespectful and demeaning. Likewise for the slang referring to sexual orientation.
Slur - py
by G. Kroege
Wednesday, Apr. 28, 2004 at 1:31 PM
Redskin
Tonto
Five Cent Cigar
Tom Boy
Pretty Boy
Midgets in a Jar
Wigger
Jigger
Shake 'em, not stirred
Chigger
Booger
Mick Cop Chinese Laundry
Discount
Retail
Jew 'em down more
Bed Head
Rag Head
Dead Head Camel Jockey
Pirrelli Tires
They go Flat
Daigo Wop Wop Wop
British Isles
Greek Isles
Lesbos Pedophiles
Admiral Farragut
Naval Frigate
Start a fire with with a faggot
Camel Cigarettes
Take A Drag
Lite up another fag
Get Back
Wet Back
David Duke Fascist Hologram
Open Mind
Open Legs
Western Women Whores
Zionist
Pianist
Blood Libel Truth
Mad Man
Psychopath
Bi Polar Romance
Indy Media
Captive Media
Fascist Nazi Socialist Oppression
Fascist
Capitalist
Socialist Anarchist smells like Trieste
Eat Bite
F*** Suck
Stinking Hippy Street Trash
![[masthead]](/images/masthead_140.png)